Anika and Liz infiltrate a pre-warp society, where they absolutely do not enter a race, that is clearly a trap. Not because of the human sacrifice, because of the running!
- Like episode 3, this felt a bit predictable, but ALSO like a rebuke to “Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach” and “Who Watches The Watchers”, so we’re not mad about it
- What if obeying the Prime Directive is the unethical option?
- (Caretaker + Who Watches the Watchers) x (Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach + Sacred Ground) – Christopher Pike/Evil Ex + Michael “Fuck the Prime Directive” Burnham
- Hugh Culber and ChatGPT therapy
- Paul and Hugh are both at turning points, but it’s not a crisis for them or their relationship
- This season is the opposite of a mystery box
- Discovery has always been a series where science and religion co-exist
- Paramount, the most competent media company, accidentally took Anika off their Star Trek list and put her on the Knuckles list. So … we talk about Knuckles!
- Is Kovich a little too omniscient?
- We are not here for fandom’s fatshaming of Mary Wiseman
Transcript
Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext, and subspace hosted by Anika and Liz. Today, we’re discussing Star Trek: Discovery, season five, episode six, Whistlespeak.
Liz: So this really reminded me of episode three in that it was very familiar, it was predictable. How soon did you figure out that the race was going to end in the winner dying?
Anika: I mean, when the woman whose life Michael saved came and said that her friend was one of the winners, or something like that, that was when.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. I was already getting vibes by then, and at that point, I was like, guys, come on.
Anika: Exactly, and then that was confirmation.
Liz: And yet, I really enjoyed this episode. Because, first of all, I’m always here for a story where the solution and the ethical thing to do is to break the Prime Directive. And it felt like a real clap back at Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach, with Michael going, “Hey, have you considered not sacrificing people?”
Anika: Yeah, Michael was not having any of it. She was just like, no, that’s not going to happen, actually.
Liz: I think a lot of people are going to be very angry about this episode. And frankly, that makes me like it more.
Anika: Is it because they’re going to say that Michael is too cavalier about the Prime Directive?
Liz: They’re going to say that. They’re going to complain about Michael not coming in and being an atheist bro Picard style.
Anika: Ha!
Liz: “Your gods aren’t real.”
Anika: Atheist bro!
Liz: They’re going to complain that the person that Tilly bonds with is non-binary and that’s too woke. They’re going to complain about a lot of things.
Anika: I’m pretty sure Michael said there are three genders on this planet.
Liz: And they’re all represented.
Liz: Rava is-
Anika: And they’re all represented.
Liz: We don’t know how they identify within their culture, but they use them they pronouns. So here we are. I’m just going to call them non-binary.
Anika: Well, yes, I just saying that I think it was very explicit, like, ha ha ha gender. It can be anything.
Liz: I’m going to be honest. I heard that line and I was like, yeah, but we’re not going to see the third gender people because, you know, I’ve been trained by Strange New Worlds to have low expectations. And this really did feel — I think I said episode three was post Strange New Worlds in a bad way. This feels like post Strange New Worlds in the best way.
Anika: I just really liked Rava being non-binary because there was the nice parallel between Rayner and Adira and Tilly and Rava. I was super into that. I was like, this is so good. I love parallels and mirrors and echoes and stories that are telling the same story with different people. It made me very happy. And by doing that, they were explicitly saying, you’re supposed to be getting this out of this.
Liz: Oh yeah, yeah. Again, not subtle, but I don’t think a lot of Star Trek fans are very bright, to be honest. The more I see of Trekkies on social media, the more I think they actually do need to have things explained in very, very small words.
Anika: I think it’s everyone. I think that we have been trained to expect certain things. And so now, and I don’t think that’s a good thing, but I think that at least Discovery is trying to do it in ways that aren’t subtle, but aren’t…
Liz: Regressive.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: Generally speaking.
Anika: So.
Liz: Can I just say how alarmed I am that Hugh is getting therapy with ChatGPT? However, ChatGPT is doing a better job than Katrina Cornwell. So, like…
Anika: It’s a problem. I have here that Tony Stark was getting therapy from ChatGPT way back in 2016 in Captain America Civil War. It was a problem then. And I only mentioned that because it feels like, you know, it’s almost a decade later and we’re still pitching it in a different mainstream science fiction story. And I’m concerned that we’ve now all moved to telehealth therapy, which is convenient and you know, it is more accessible for some people. I’m not against telehealth therapy, but it’s one step closer to ChatGPT therapy. And I’m concerned that tech bros are going to create therapy bots instead of actually getting therapy themselves.
Liz: I regret to inform you that I have seen at least one headline about testing of a quote unquote AI therapist.
Anika: Right. So this is going to be our future. And as someone who has wanted to be a counselor, that’s a problem for me.
Liz: It really annoys me because we’ve talked before about how something that makes Star Trek different from other franchises is that the doctors are always people. Even the holographic doctor is a person. There’s no autodoc. There’s no automated bio bed. I understand that AI therapy is a natural progression from the holographic doctor. And even he played around with psychology and it usually went very badly because he’s bad at his job. So I understand this is a natural progression of the technology in Star Trek. It’s just a change that I’m not entirely comfortable with. And I think mainly because it does reflect stuff that’s happening in the real world now that I’m not completely comfortable with.
Anika: It’s more of the, when it becomes reality or when people think that, oh, we’ll just do that. If you can just create a hologram of your dead loved one to talk to, then that’ll just solve all problems. That is, again, a technology that’s emerging now and people have really visceral negative reactions to it.
Liz: And it surprises me that Paul, who is so sensitive, is okay with this.
Anika: It could be a therapy, you know, the way that there is EMDR or cognitive behavioral, that it could be a therapy. You could have a holographic — have a conversation with a loved one that you couldn’t have. And you know, instead of role play, it’s going to be the actual person here, and it’s going to be as realistic as possible. That is something that you would do under the supervision of a person.
Liz: Hugh does say, make a note to Dr. Pollard, that this particular grief therapy is effective. I guess we’re not meant to think it’s replacing therapy overall. I just don’t know how much of an upgrade this is from hitting up a passing admiral for some support. Obviously, Hugh should be going to Admiral Vance for this.
Anika: I mean, I guess that if it’s because Hugh is like, I can’t be the one therapist on this show, maybe that’s fair, since I think he wasn’t a therapist in the first season.
Liz: No, I think he’s done a correspondence course or something in the 32nd century.
Anika: In the 32nd century, he decided to become a counselor, which is fine.
Liz: Love a career change, love that for him, but it’s a bit cavalier. Right.
Anika: And again, I’m more concerned about the reality of the real people who watch Tony Stark and Hugh Culber get AI therapy and think, “That’s fine, that’s what I need. I should put all my efforts into making the hologram mom instead of working out my stuff.”
Liz: Yeah, yeah. “I’m going to work on that instead of working on me.”
Anika: Right. But one thing that I would like to know is that the AI therapist dismissed the idea of spirituality being, you know — and he was like, hey, that’s wrong, because my grandma would totally talk to me about her spirituality. And the AI was like, oh, but there might be a medical reason behind all of this. And he was like, oh, cool, there might be a medical reason. And he went to find out. Like, he got really excited about that.
And it was like, of course, ChatGPT would think that there is a medical reason, because again, ChatGPT is programmed by the tech bros who are all these people who are Star Trek fans, who think that spirituality doesn’t exist and you have to have science for everything.
Liz: And yet, if I had just had someone else living in my head temporarily, I kind of would go through some sort of deep dive into the physical effects of that before I… If I had lingering after effects, I would turn to a physical solution first just to rule it out.
Anika: If he had gone to sickbay or to the ER or whatever, I think that you would as well. I think that when you go to a doctor, they will check you out for physical things first or at least consider it, although everything is anxiety these days. But what I liked was that the AI was like, it’s definitely physical. Go check that out first. And then you can come talk to me about your silly dreams.
Paul was like, well, your brain’s fine. There’s nothing going on here that I can see. It’s not making you sick. So if you’re having something else, then, you know, why not just explore that? And Paul is known as the scientist who always needs to find answers and always needs to understand things. I just liked that juxtaposition. It was like Paul decided not to be a tech bro.
Liz: Yes, which is funny because this whole season is about him seeking a new science to excel at. And we see that with his need to like, you know, break this code with the clue. But I think Paul deeply loves Hugh, and also his experience with the tardigrade DNA and the mycelial network, and pulling Hugh out of the mycelial network, has sort of opened his mind. I definitely think he was an atheist bro when he was younger and has grown beyond that. And he respects Hugh and he wants Hugh to be okay.
Anika: Very, very sweet. They have a sweet scene.
Liz: Yeah, I was so worried about them and their relationship earlier in the season, but I honestly think they’re doing well. Like, Paul is seeking a new obsession, but it’s not a crisis. Hugh is having a sort of spiritual seeking moment, but it’s not a crisis. It’s just something they’re both going through. They’re going through a midlife crisis, but together.
Anika: Right. And neither of them is like pulling away from the other or hiding things. Or they’re doing it on their own, but they’re not doing it in isolation.
Liz: Yes. Whereas Adira really needs the support of Rayner to go, you got this.
Anika: It was so cute.
Liz: I just think it means so much that this is not Tilly, who has known them since they came on board, but Rayner, the hard ass, who is treating them with such respect. I do keep comparing Rayner to Lorca, even though I don’t think that really stands up, but there are moments in season one where he treats Tilly with unexpected respect and you’re like, oh, maybe he’s not such a bad guy after all. And Rayner gives the same vibe, but we know he’s a good guy. He’s just learning to express it.
Anika: He’s secretly a softie.
Liz: He’s such a softie.
Anika: He recognized that they needed something. They needed, not just support from a standpoint of making sure that they’re okay and that they are a part of the team, but support of, I’m going to put you into a position and then I’m going to give you somewhere to stand. I’m going to create a foundation for you and put you there and you’re going to be okay. You’re not on your own, but you have to prove yourself.
Liz: I’ll catch you if you fall, but I don’t think you’re going to fall. And contrast that again with Pike and his treatment of Uhura, who is just put up there and has to stand on her own. Of course, Adira is white.
Anika: I really enjoyed that. And again, it contrasted so nicely with Tilly and Rava.
Liz: I saw someone on Tumblr describe this season as the opposite of a mystery box in that we know what the MacGuffin is and we have a pretty good idea of what it’s all about. And the point is to go along with the characters as they solve. Like, it’s a character driven story. And as they’re discussing here, each clue, weird and sort of easy to solve as most of them have been, it teaches them something that they… Again, the real meaning of life is the friends we made along the way. It’s the journey, not the destination. Blah, blah, blah. It’s all very greeting card, fortune cookie wisdom, but because it’s centered in the characterization, I’m not mad about it.
Anika: No, and they were like, it was like, what is the lesson that we literally said? What is the lesson that we learned this week? But the lesson that they learned this week was like, technology can be dangerous, so be careful.
Liz: But also, I think the lesson is sometimes interfering is the right thing to do.
Anika: Well, that’s always my lesson. (laughs)
Liz: But you look at it, these are people who are more or less aligned with the Federation, and that has a very strong policy of non-interference. And so these 24th century scientists are sort of going back to first principles. The Progenitors were the ultimate interferers. How can we access their technology if we haven’t learned to use it responsibly?
Anika: Which is, I guess, the whole thing about the Prime Directive, right?
Liz: Yeah. It was never about, let these people die because they haven’t reached some arbitrary level of technical development. It was, how can we do the least damage to their culture? And letting the people die out is pretty damaging to a culture, I’d say. If you have the power to not do that, how about not doing that?
Anika: Which Kreel does do with his weather towers, but it’s also like, did he really expect them to be okay for centuries? This was 800 years ago.
Liz: I guessed that he would ensure that Denobulans were going back to maintain it, but then the Burn meant that they waged a couple of hundred years?
Anika: So it was the Burn. It’s always the Burn.
Liz: It’s always the Burn. And this is the problem with being a technocracy, but also putting all of your eggs into one dilithium basket.
Anika: That’s pretty sad if you think about it. Because, you know, the other side of it is if the… I mean, these people, they said they were pre-industrial, so they’re like, they’re very… You described them as Harfoots, which I think is accurate. So they had no chance. But some of the time, Captain Kirk was well known for interfering because people’s cultures had stagnated. And so he has to, like, force them to deal with their stuff because they had come up with a solution that was okay for them. And that could happen to… It’s like I described in my elaborate math to create this episode. I start with Caretaker because it feels like, you know, the… what’s he called?
Liz: The Caretaker?
Anika: Kreel. He’s acting like the Caretaker. He’s like, I’m going to take care of you guys and make sure everything is okay. And then 800 years later when it’s failing and they don’t know how to live. And that’s a problem.
Liz: When they said they were looking for a planet with no water, I was kind of hoping it would be the Ocampa homeworld. I’m glad we didn’t get that story. I like what we got. But for a moment, I was really excited.
Anika: So I like my equation.
Liz: It’s Caretaker plus Who Watches The Watchers multiplied by Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach plus Sacred Ground minus Christopher Pike and his evil ex plus Michael Fuck the Prime Directive Burnham. I like it.
Anika: I think that’s very accurate.
Liz: One of the ways this feels like a Strange New World episode is that it is very much stuff we’ve seen before. And there was a point where I think I texted you going, look, I’ve seen Sacred Ground, but…
Anika: I mean, it’s funny because of that whole group of episodes, I don’t really like them. Who Watches The Watchers is probably my favorite of the four. And it’s a perfectly fine episode of TNG. Obviously, Lift Us Up, that’s the worst episode. My problem with Sacred Ground isn’t so much the episode itself. It feels reductive because it forces Kathryn Janeway to be, I’m really into science and I don’t really believe in faith. And like up until that episode, she was not that. She was someone who actually had a very spiritual side and even like described her spirituality to Harry Kim. And so it was like, why is this episode happening?
Liz: Character continuity? In my Voyager?
Anika: I know. I guess that’s asking too much. But in this episode didn’t bring anything necessarily new to any of those stories. But I did like, I did feel like someone in the writers room was like, I really didn’t like the ending of Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach. Can we have a do-over? Because we had another dad and a child and he got to save his kid.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Like, the captain convinced the father to go against his instincts and save the kid instead of the captain getting in the way of the father from following his instincts to save his child.
Liz: I do think this episode adds something new to this sub-series, and it’s that at no point in this episode is anyone, particularly Michael, going, “Oh no, your gods are fake. You made them all up. You have to go and be atheists now.”
Anika: That’s true.
Liz: There’s not even Janeway’s sort of wishy-washy, “Oh, look, maybe there’s just something we don’t understand out there, but it’s probably aliens.” Michael is not a religious person, but she’s straight up saying maybe your gods do exist and maybe it’s okay if you continue to worship them in a new way. And I think that’s a much more sophisticated version of the story.
Anika: But I think it’s also very true to Discovery, like, I have at the top here that the overarching theme of the episode is that science and spirituality can and do coexist. And then I thought about it and I was like, no, actually, that’s the entire series. That we have had this story over and over and over again in different ways and with different people. And we said earlier that Paul went through it, Michael’s gone through it, and we even had that terrible season two episode that people love.
Liz: Yeah, I’m still mad.
Anika: And Deep Space Nine is sort of known as the Star Trek that accepts religion, and so I think that this is of the new Treks, the one that we can now point to as well, and I think that that is good, that we should see that kind of progress.
Liz: Absolutely, because in Who Watches The Watchers, Picard gives this speech about how humanity has no more needs of gods or religion. And in the very same season, we learn that people on the Enterprise are celebrating Diwali. So which is it, Jean-Luc? And I think in that case, this is him as a white European philosopher king, assuming that his experience is universal.
Anika: Not to psychopathologize Captain Picard. But I understand why he wouldn’t believe in God.
Liz: Oh, absolutely.
Liz: And I think, like, I remember watching the Omega Directive a couple of years ago for my blog and thinking, actually Voyager needs more atheists. The Borg did not need to have a religion. I don’t have a problem with the Star Trek universe being primarily secular or people being overtly atheist. I actually think that’s really cool. I just… the genocidal implications of no humans practice religion anymore is not great. And the cultural imperialism of sweeping in and going, “you, your gods, they’re fake, be like us now” is not great.
Anika: Not great. Can I say… Can I go off on topic to religion and media, but slightly off topic?
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Well, because this is coming out when Knuckles is already out, so I can say this.
Liz: Tell our listeners about your Knuckles screener problem.
Anika: I mean, it’s not a problem. Now that I’ve watched them, I really love it. I’m impressed with this silly show that is on Paramount Plus. Everyone go watch it.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Knuckles, only on Paramount Plus.
Liz: Because as I understand it, you were taken off the Discovery screener list, but put on the Knuckles list.
Anika: I was somehow taken off of the Discovery screener list and put on the Knuckles. I got back on the Discovery one, but I’m still on Knuckles. Today, my son and I watched the first three episodes of Knuckles, and then we went to IHOP to have Sonic-inspired breakfast.
Liz: This sounds like the best day.
Anika: It was. It was the best day. The third episode of Knuckles shocked me with how clever it was because Knuckles is canonically from a lost tribe where all of his people were persecuted, and he’s the last one, and he had to go on a quest to find his holy artifacts. He gets invited to a Shabbos dinner, and they tell him the story, and they say, you know, he tells them his story, and the mother says, oh, well, you’re basically Jewish, so welcome. You know, it’s like, oh, my gosh, Knuckles’ story was always actually about Judaism, and I just never noticed. This is amazing.
I just think that we can have stories that are adjacent to religion and tradition and culture and things that are important to people, and not take anything away from the science fiction or fantasy or adorable animals that are from outer space, part of it, and that that makes things more inclusive instead of pushing people away.
Liz: No, I agree. And I think Discovery as a series has always existed in the gray areas and as much as is possible in the 2020s, relishes nuance.
Speaking — no, this isn’t really about nuance. I just want to shout out David Cronenberg’s 21st century legal pad. I just need to know how that paper survived. 900 years, 1000 years, because it is clear that he can time travel.
Anika: And so he just went back to the 20th century and got it and then came forward.
Liz: He just popped into an Officeworks or a Staples or something. Yeah.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: I’m really into that. I might write that fic where he just does a stationery run and spends his time dodging Tesla’s and Brent Spiners and everyone.
Anika: I liked David Cronenberg’s legal pad.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: But he was giving off Dumbledore vibes, and I don’t like that at all.
Liz: Decided red flag.
Anika: Decided red flag. What I mainly mean by that is that — my brother describes it as the main problem with the Harry Potter books — other than the author — is that ‘Dumbledore is never wrong and explains it all’ is the subtitle of every ending chapter. That’s just what happens throughout the books, to the point where he is dead, and he still turns up to explain everything. And that is a problem. That is not an interesting story. It’s not an interesting way to tell a story.
Liz: Yes, I do worry that Kovich is a little omniscient.
Anika: So he’s literally in the fully white room and he’s like, I got some information for you. Here’s the five scientists names.
Liz: And it’s like, okay, in fairness, he has resources at his disposal that Michael doesn’t have. And also time. He’s not the one running around the galaxy. And also, in a 10 episode season, again, you’re going to need shortcuts.
Anika: I understand why it’s done. I’m just saying that I hope that he’s used very sparingly.
Liz: I agree. I definitely don’t want a Kovich ex machina. And I was going to say, I hope he doesn’t turn out to be evil. And then I remembered that at no point in Harry Potter does Harry actually figure out that Dumbledore is evil.
Anika: So yeah, Dumbledore is definitely the villain.
Liz: Just disappointment all the way down.
Anika: Many villains, many villains.
Liz: And then our last remaining riddler is a Betazoid.
Anika: Named Marina.
Liz: Marina. Oh, I just made that connection! Oh my God.
Anika: Just wanted to point that out.
Liz: Yep. Like Marina Surtis. Love it.
Anika: Like Marina Surtis. Yes.
Anika: It’s Marina Derex, which to me sounds like Marina the King. So that’s what I’m expecting.
Liz: I kind of do hope that she is a holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rix, etc. A descendant of…
Anika: That would be amazing.
Liz: Yes. A descendant of Deanna, maybe. I don’t know. She doesn’t have to be. We can have Betazoids who aren’t related to that family.
Anika: She doesn’t have to be related, but she could have a whole different ridiculous title.
Liz: She could belong to a different Great House of Betazed.
Anika: Yes, exactly.
Anika: It’s like the Eighth House.
Liz: Yeah. Or she could just be a pleb. I’m okay with a pleb. But yeah, I’m curious, especially because the title of next episode is Erigah?
Anika: Is it where they’re going?
Liz: Yeah, maybe.
Anika: I didn’t rewatch to make sure, but I thought we caught them in Erigah, or something. I thought that’s where they were going. But I could be making that up.
Liz: To be honest, the quality of the screeners is low enough that I absolutely miss things, which is partly why these episodes where we’re only going on screeners are a bit shorter.
Anika: Also, no subtitles. I could use captions sometimes.
Liz: Oh, 100%. It’s not that everyone’s whispering and crying as haters complain. I just find the sound mixing a bit muddy for my elderly ears. Which is really all I can say on the subject, because if you listen to this podcast, I am not very good at editing it.
My final thought on this episode is that I thought the set for the planet was great. Ben and Adam of The Greatest Generation talk about garden center — Oh, hello to the cat who just walked across your camera. Ben and Adam of The Greatest Generation talk about garden center sets, where it looks like they’re filming in a nursery. And this looks like a set, but not a cheap set.
Anika: I really liked the moss.
Liz: Oh yeah.
Anika: That whole part. I liked that Michael was like, Hey, I have a science reason that I can go find this thing. And that was cool.
Liz: And first of all, I’m going to drink this bowl of water. I got so much secondhand thirst in that scene.
Anika: So I really liked that whole — It was pretty. The moss was pretty. And then she was following it. And she went and found the secret rock. And it was just fun to me to be like, I want to go for a run in the woods and then find a rock where it’s secret alien technology. Sounds great. Let’s go do that.
Liz: I absolutely don’t want to go for a run anywhere. I am bracing myself for the wave of fatphobia we’re going to get with regard to Tilly running and winning a race. Even though she is obviously very strong. And this is a race about endurance rather than speed or being thin.
Anika: I’m sure that Tilly is way more healthy than every single person on that planet.
Liz: Oh, yeah.
Anika: Because they fight dust as part of their daily lives. Therefore, she’s doing great just by virtue of living on Discovery.
Liz: I would also say, given the hours that you have to work as an actress, she is probably stronger and has better endurance than most of the keyboard warriors complaining that she’s not a stick. And also more than me.
Anika: Of course, it was beautiful when she went and gathered Rava to bring them with her. And then she was so devastated. She was like, I’m the reason that you’re here. I felt very badly hurt.
Liz: And I was like, don’t do it, Tilly. This is clearly going to be a sacrifice.
Anika: This is very bad. This is going to all end badly. And especially because the dad looked so sad because he was like, oh, my child is all right. And then it was like, no.
Anika: But also that was such a Cars — the end of Cars, that always makes me cry right now. The end of Cars always makes me cry. And that was the end of Cars. And I was just like, this is so perfect.
Liz: So that is the most Anika coded thing you’ve ever said.
Anika: It’s true, though. It was exactly the same as the end of Cars. And the end of Cars always makes me cry.
Liz: Amazing. I was going, oh, no, no, Rava, I’ve seen Lift Us Up Where Suffering Cannot Reach. I know what happens to the children of South Asian men when there’s a sacrifice coming. But no, they saved them. I’m so happy.
Rava was played by an Australian, which pleased me. It’s always nice to see one of us out there. Getting work. That’s all I have. This was a solid episode. It was only quietly groundbreaking, but I feel good about it.
Anika: Yes. It was subtly groundbreaking.
Liz: Oh, we’re going to have so many fights on the internet in two weeks. Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at antimatterpod.com, including links to our social media, credits for our theme music, and transcripts of our episodes.
Liz: You can follow us on Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram, and Blue Sky, all at antimatterpod, and on Mastodon at @antimatterpod@tenforward.social.
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I can’t word. What even are words?
Join us next week when we’ll be discussing the next episode of Star Trek: Discovery, Erigah.