Anika and Liz beam over to a long-abandoned and extremely haunted space ship. And instead of talking about what we experienced over there in the shadows, we’re going to discuss episode 2 of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds‘ fourth season, “The Griffin Institute”.
- This episode is a huge step up from the premiere! And also still super-duper into the eugenics of it all! The away team’s biggest fear is … their genes!
- This whole subplot with La’an is really leaning into racist stereotypes about Chinese women
- “I am continuously horrified by how this series portrays Spock’s internal conflicts.”
- The episode wants us to think that Carol Marcus is the bad guy in the relationship, not James T “actually I’m gonna go to this conference instead of seeing my infant son” Kirk
- We are obsessed with the conference. What could possibly be relevant to Spock, La’an and Jim? Was there only one bed?
- We are a Pro T’Pring Podcast
- Does SNW actually want us to be engaged with Spock/La’an?
- Liz has a pitch for a Division 12 comic (spoilers: it involves Lorca)
Transcript
(Please note this transcript was generated automatically by Apple Podcasts, and though it was edited by a human, some errors may remain.)
Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace hosted by Anika and Liz. Today, we’re discussing Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 4, Episode 2, “The Griffin Incident.”
Liz: I’ve been watching Widow’s Bay with my flatmate, and it helped me realize that it’s not all horror that I hate, but it’s specific types of horror. And I’ve learned that one of the specific types of horror that I don’t like involves a self dismemberment, an eye gouging and finger chopping. So yeah, I don’t think this was a bad episode, but I did not enjoy it.
Anika: Unfortunately for you, that’s what this episode is.
Liz: Yeah, which is kind of a shame because otherwise it’s a character piece, and my biggest problem with it is the pacing. I think it’s fully 15 minutes too long. If we just had a little less gouging, a little less chopping, I would have been completely on board.
Anika: Honestly, I generally liked this episode. I think that I also, I’m not a huge fan of horror in general, and especially slasher horror. So yeah, I wasn’t really into those parts of it, but overall, the actual story that they were telling, I was like, you know, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed myself watching this episode, generally speaking. And I think that is compared to last week. That’s huge.
Liz: Which was actively terrible.
Anika: I did not get angry at this episode. So it’s a very low bar, but they passed it.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: My first note here is that the best thing that I think Star Trek: Strange New Worlds does is play with genre. They are dedicated at this point to doing different types of storytelling with their stories. And I appreciate that. I actually think that is the best thing that they bring to Star Trek as a whole.
Liz: I agree. I wish they were a little, a little more consistent about it and a little less, “Okay, this week it’s horror.” You know, I wish, I wish there was a little more subtlety involved, but I don’t even think that’s a Star Trek: Strange New Worlds problem. I think it’s a 2020s problem.
Anika: Exactly. I was going to say that is not on Star Trek or Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. That is on all of television right now. Unfortunately, subtlety is not a thing.
Liz: And also, horror has really been having a moment for the last few years. I think probably starting before Get Out, we had Get Out and Sinners and on television, Widow’s Bay. Obsession. The Backrooms. Even Interview with the Vampire slash The Vampire Lestat. This is a really good time for horror and scary stuff.
Anika: They’re playing with it.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Which makes sense when I look at the world. It’s like, oh yeah.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Horror is the correct genre for the current time period. It all makes sense. And honestly, the COVID pandemic plays into that in a way. So I get it. I get why we’re at this point in time. And again, this episode didn’t make me angry and I enjoyed most of it. So I’m it’s fine. It’s fine. It was a little too gory, but you know, that’s whatever. And also I hate to be this person. I apologize to everyone.
Liz: But I love it when you’re this person.
Anika: This episode did not beat the eugenics allegations.
Liz: Oh no!
Anika: All three of our protagonists, deepest, darkest fear is their genetics.
Liz: Yep.
Anika: That’s actually a problem, guy. Just putting it out there. That’s not great. Not great.
Liz: No. It’s like, help, we are characters in the most biological determinist Star Trek and we know what that means for us.
Anika: It’s just really troubling. Again, I enjoyed this. I enjoyed each of the three characters’ fears. It’s one at a time. It’s one thing, but all three at once. Being legitimately-
Liz: And in the context of the wider series, yeah. Yes.
Anika: Yes, exactly. If this was a one-off, it’s like, okay, maybe. But this on top of all of the other things that have happened. Yeah.
Liz: I wrote down, “Yo, is this racist?” when I was thinking about the thing with La’an and the other security chief, Rose, and is it coincidence that they’re both Asian women? And is this Strange New Worlds accidentally saying that Asian women can’t be trusted, which is a trope? And we even saw it from leftists, with Mitch McConnell’s wife going to China right after his quote unquote accident, which is definitely not a death.
Anika: I mean, legitimately, the tropes that they’re playing with.
Liz: What are we trying to say here, Strange New Worlds?
Anika: Right, right. It’s like, okay, in each case, all of the things that they are doing, yes, being afraid of turning into your father can be almost a universalized trope, right? That has nothing to do with race, that has nothing to do with genetics. However, in the context of the rest of the series, then we start being like, okay, guys, and in particular, Spock, I’m continuously horrified by how this series portrays Spock’s internal conflicts.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. They looked up tragic mulatto on TV Tropes and were like, okay, so that’s what we’ve got to do, right?
Anika: That’s our plan. That was their checklist, and we just keep checking them off, and they’re so proud of themselves, and I’m like, guys, did I enjoy all of the Spock stuff? Yes. Do I think it’s good for the character or the series or my personal enjoyment of life? No, not really.
Liz: Yeah. They keep doing it to Christina Chong, who is literally mixed race, and who has talked about the specific prejudice she faced when people found out that she had an Asian parent and a white parent. And it’s like, what are you doing, guys?
Anika: It’s really rough. I mean, okay.
Liz: And also Jim Kirk is there.
Anika: I mean, okay, but Jim Kirk is there, and Jim Kirk has almost the most, not even almost, legitimately the most nuanced version of the trope. He’s the one who gets the familial, like he has his whole family that is trying to cut him out, and the family that he feels excised from with his birth family and his father and his brother. And then he has this idealized version of what family should be in his brother’s family. And it’s just like, oh my God, do you know what you’re doing?
Liz: I mean, I don’t know that they do.
Anika: They don’t.
Liz: And the thing is the Kirk brothers keep going on about their dad and how their dad was never around. They don’t really know how to have a family because of that. And I’m like, guys, I’m pretty sure you had a mother. Where is Winona? Why don’t you just put gender aside and follow in your mother’s footsteps?
Anika: We have had a mention of Kirk’s mother in this series. So why is this episode so focused on the failures of the father?
Liz: And also his wife’s name is never said out loud.
Anika: Of course not.
Liz: Aurelan is a person in TOS. We know who she is. We know who she was.
Anika: Sam’s already dead by the time they get there, but we get to meet Aurelan before she dies. So it doesn’t matter. It only matters that Sam makes time for his family. And Jim doesn’t. That’s the only thing that matters. And they are so disrespectful to Carol.
Liz: Oh, my God.
Anika: I cannot. And they are saying that Kirk is failing, but it still comes off as, Carol should give him a chance. She’s mentioned three times, and in each time, it’s very much, if she was a better person, Jim would be a better father. And it’s like, it is not her job to make him a good dad. I’m sorry. That’s just how it is.
Liz: The thing is, right, in 1982, when Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan came out, they explicitly tell us that Carol told Jim very early on that she did not want him to be part of David’s life because they had very different priorities. They had very different careers.
And the thing is, at the time, that was not necessarily a normal thing to do, but it was kind of a feminist thing to do. “I’m just going to have this baby and I’m going to be a single mom, and dad doesn’t have to be in the picture.” Whereas now, I think we have much more of a default expectation that men should be involved with their children, even when they’re not in a relationship with the mother.
And I think that’s good, but it’s also flipped around into a fresh type of misogyny, where if the father isn’t present, that’s the mother’s fault. And we see that with Beverly and Picard and Jack, and we’re seeing the seeds of it now, where it’s Carol’s fault that she didn’t give Jim enough chances. Even though Jim is the one who blew off his family, his infant son, to go to a conference, a conference.
Anika: That’s what happened. That’s exactly what happened. And then he got trapped in this nonsense. And yeah, that wasn’t his fault, but it’s also like, Carol is correct that his job does not make it easy to be a dad.
And he wants to be captain. So he is on a track that is different from Sam’s. Sam is like, I’m okay where I’m at and I’m happy here. And I am prioritizing my family over my career and good for Sam, but that’s just the way it is. And it’s okay for Carol to say, “I don’t want that from you. I would rather have my son raise without you than with this ghost version of you,” that is literally just going to be used against her, both by Jim and by David.
As a single mom, I understand Carol’s perspective in that she doesn’t want there to be this idea of a father that hangs over them, that is very idealized and not reality. He never has to deal with any of the bad stuff and only shows up to give gifts and his presence is a gift at that point because he’s so absent the rest of the time.
And screw that, I’m sorry, but I don’t want to deal with that. I would rather just be like, fine, you don’t want to be in my son’s life, then great, go not be in my son’s life.
Liz: Yeah, and I think of how Beverly is villainized for looking at Picard’s life and going, oh, he is going to get himself killed, he is going to be assassinated or we’re going to be assassinated. It is unsafe for me to raise a child with this guy and noping out, and she’s treated as the worst bitch who ever lived. And Carol is just making the equally reasonable but less extreme choice of going, he is never going to be a meaningful presence in our lives, and I’m just going to cut the cord now.
Anika: Right.
Liz: And she is going to be treated so badly.
Anika: And is that sad? Yes. Yes, it is sad if a child has to grow up without one of their parents. Yes, that is sad. That is a tragedy. But when you have no good choices, you try to do, you choose the one that is the least damaging.
Liz: And it’s like, if Kirk really cared, he could have initiated a joint custody.
Anika: Right.
Liz: He could have called a lawyer, right? I’m sure they have family court in the Federation. It’s going to turn into the whole, “she took the kids and I don’t have custody.” And it’s like, well, did you ask for custody?
Anika: No. Right. Yeah, it was really frustrating to me. It was really frustrating that final scene where she just doesn’t answer the call. And I’m like, of course she doesn’t answer the call. She waited around for a week and a half and you didn’t show up. And she was like, I have to get on with my life. And I have to protect my kid from disappointment. I’m sorry.
Liz: We talk about the damage of growing up without a father, but also the damage of always waiting for a father who’s never there.
Anika: Yeah. So anyway, I just have a lot of feelings about this. And none of them are good.
Liz: Carol Marcus did nothing wrong.
Anika: So yeah. So the plot of this episode is that Jim, Spock and La’an, three people who are actually terrible at emotions.
Liz: Yep.
Anika: Went to a conference together, which is amazing and I love it. And I want every fic about that.
Liz: Yes. The conference is absolutely the highlight.
Anika: On the way home from the conference, they find an abandoned Starfleet ship, the Griffin, from many years ago. And board it, obviously, because they’re Starfleet and that’s what they do. And it turns out that it’s super haunted and it affects them all in a very distinctive way.
And Jim’s greatest fear of failing his son and his family in general. I would say that Jim’s greatest fear is failing his son, but then it’s blown up to be also his brother and also his father and also everyone he ever knew. And even La’an, who’s just a random might have been, and yet he’s feeling guilty about that. So that’s Jim’s arc.
Spock’s arc is that he’s not Vulcan enough and too human, and also at the same time, not human enough and too Vulcan. It’s the Spock story. That’s always Spock’s story. And it’s not, it’s not a good story. That’s a good thing for them to be handling, but it’s a, that happens.
And then there’s La’an, who more than once in this episode, said that Starfleet is her family, which is all, was just depressing to begin with.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Once again, it is, a bunch of people are affected by an anomaly, and La’an is affected in the worst possible way.
Liz: Because La’an is a woman of color, and therefore her job in this series is to suffer.
Anika: Legitimately. So she becomes a paranoid murderer, basically. And has a weird parasocial relationship with the long dead slash undead security chief of this ship, the Griffin, who also happens to be a young Asian woman, who looks exactly like her.
Liz: Yeah. And that’s intentional. The hairstyling and everything is very deliberate.
Anika: It’s definitely supposed to be a version of La’an. And I get what they were going for, but it comes off really poorly, in my opinion. It could have been done well.
Liz: It’s not great.
Anika: And I’ve come up with a fix it. And once again, they should just ask me.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I’ll fix their problems for them. Or, you know, to be honest, they should have asked Christina Chong. I feel like she could have fixed it. Legitimately.
Liz: So tell us your fix. Tell us how you would punch this up to make it better.
Anika: So at the very last frame of this episode is basically the other security chief, the zombie security chief, Lieutenant Harper, who is a stand-in for La’an, looking at a window being creepy and dead. You know, it’s a very horror film ending.
Now, the way I would fix this, I would have had someone, let’s say Una, finishing up a log or something and writing in something about the Griffin and particularly security chief Harper and shown a completely different person than the person that we saw throughout the episode through La’an’s eyes. I would have shown like a white woman, a Black woman, like someone who’s just totally not Harper. Maybe a man. Just a totally different character that is absolutely not the woman that La’an kept seeing that was a simile of herself.
Liz: Yeah. Or even the same actress but styled differently.
Anika: Yes, exactly. The same actress but styled differently to reflect that the version that we were seeing was from La’an’s perspective, her screwed up, weird horror space virus perspective, that she was seeing herself in this character.
And that would have legitimately solved the racism problem because it would have said, oh, it was just La’an’s putting herself and her own version of what was happening onto the story line instead of it being reality. And so in that way, it’s not the same security officer who wears her hair the same way, who acts like her mannerisms are the same as La’an, and who just happens to be also Asian. That whole thing wouldn’t be true. And I feel like that would have been creepier and also not racist.
Liz: But I think that would have been really effective.
Anika: And it would have been such an easy change. It’s legitimately five seconds of the whole episode that would have solved some of these problems that, again, they did not mean to do. They are just trying to tell a story about La’an, and they’re using this other character to tell the story about La’an. And I get it, but it’s like, you guys didn’t think this through.
Liz: “You didn’t think this through” is the theme of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, but yes.
Anika: Let’s talk about other people.
Liz: I was absolutely delighted when Gia Sandhu turned up as T’Pring. I didn’t realize until that moment how much I missed her.
Anika: Yes, me too. Exactly the same. That was the moment when I texted you, oh, they’re winning me over.
So going into this episode, I had a lot of trepidation because I really didn’t like the last episode, and I was worried. And then they showed this whole previously on, and I was like, nope, don’t like this, don’t like the story that’s being told in this previously on, this is bad. But then the episode happened, and it was like, okay, I kind of like the idea of them going on the conference again. That was the best part. I really enjoy that.
And then they get into this creepy space, and I was like, okay, I’m not like a super horror person, but I get it, so I understand what’s happening here. And then T’Pring showed up, and I was like, oh, I’ve changed my mind. I’m super into this. I’ve missed T’Pring. I’ve missed Spock and T’Pring, because this, I love, this is the stuff I love.
This is my favorite part of storytelling, is when it is a character who hallucinates another character. So it’s like this alternate character, but it’s also the same character. So it’s like Spock’s version of T’Pring talking to Spock. So it’s Spock talking to Spock, but it’s through the lens of this other character that is T’Pring, and it’s like how Spock sees T’Pring, but how Spock sees T’Pring, he still tells us something about T’Pring because he has encountered the real one. And the layers of different versions of the same person that happened because of those interactions are like so potent to me. I loved seeing her, and I loved the way she was T’Pring and also not T’Pring the entire time.
Liz: Yeah. I have to say, I don’t think the real T’Pring would apologize for breaking up with Spock because that was extremely Spock’s fault. She gave very clear reasons.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: But the fact that this is his hallucination tells us a lot about him. Nothing good, but it’s useful character info.
Anika: What I got out of this episode is that Spock is not particularly happy with La’an.
Liz: I really got that.
Anika: He’s enjoying the relationship, but he is not happy.
Liz: I mean, to be crude, he’s getting his dick wet.
Anika: Yeah. I mean, but I needed that. I needed that because I did not… Throughout the entire third season, I did not understand Spock and La’an. I couldn’t figure out what I was supposed to be getting out of it. I was like, am I supposed to be shipping this or not? I can’t tell. I couldn’t tell if they were happy, or if they were settling, or if they were exploring, or…
I couldn’t tell what I was supposed to be feeling this episode from the Spock and La’an stuff, because they did interact, and it was not good. From the Spock and T’Pring stuff, where T’Pring wasn’t really there, and it was just Spock using T’Pring to talk to himself. Very useful information. And then the Spock and Christine stuff, where Christine is real, and he sought her out. A
nd it was like, okay, those three things, like those layers, I was like, oh, I feel so much better about what I’m supposed to be understanding about Spock in this series and in these relationships. I, like, it was really wonderful relationship building for me personally, but not great for Spock and La’an.
Liz: Oh no, it’s interesting that at the end, it’s Pike that La’an is confiding in, not Spock. So it’s like, are either of them happy? But either way, I’m scared, because as much as I don’t like how La’an has been written in this relationship, when it ends, and we know it has to end because Spock needs to be back on with T’Pring by the time the series ends, everyone’s going to blame La’an.
Anika: There’s just so much to say. I can keep some of it for shipping news because I have so much to say about it.
Liz: I am, also.
Anika: Every single ship that showed up in this. But yeah. Okay, so we discussed the La’an issues with the whole Harper subplot and just the La’an violence subplot. All of that is a problem. I’m just going to put it out there. Don’t like it.
Liz: I don’t like this arc.
Anika: The Spock stuff was much more straightforward. Legitimately, this episode answered questions for me, and I appreciate that. So thanks.
Then there’s the Jim stuff, which we touched on a little bit. What I will say is that this is the episode where I no longer begrudgingly but with a little bit of annoyance. So we’ll say, okay, I care about Sam Kirk. Good job. You finally made me care about Sam Kirk. It was starting in the episode where they left him on the planet with half the other crew. But this episode, I was like, oh, you know what? I saw in this episode the same level of emotion that I saw in the alternate Jim who was so excited to hear that Sam was still alive in La’an’s universe.
Liz: I think both characters are at their best when they’re caring about each other as brothers.
Anika: Exactly. I think that is a very true statement. This episode really made me feel for both Jim and Sam, and for future Jim that we know actually does lose his brother. And I have never cared about that. So I appreciate that. I appreciate them retroactively making me care about Sam Kirk.
And I don’t like the whole juxtaposition of Sam Kirk’s a good dad, Jim Kirk’s a bad dad. Don’t like that. They’re not adding anything interesting to the conversation.
Liz: No, no. Maybe if more had been done in TOS with Jim taking custody of his nephew, but then we never see the nephew again.
Anika: Right.
Liz: So it’s like, well, yeah.
Anika: Right. Exactly. So it feels a little. But Jim experiences Sam dying. And it was traumatic. It was traumatic for Jim. It was traumatic for me. It was rough.
Liz: So yeah, we saw entrails.
Anika: Yeah, it was very graphic. And then La’an, in fact, really stabs Kirk. Now she is out of her mind. It wasn’t her choice, but she stabs Kirk and go ahead.
Liz: Oh, I was going to say, I was thinking about it and it’s like this pattern of violence began with the Gorn girlfriend in season three. It’s escalating. I don’t like it.
Anika: No, I don’t like it at all.
Liz: And I know we’re supposed to be like, oh, it’s her genes, but I don’t like it.
Anika: Well, I just, I mean, I feel very much the same way as I do with Daenerys Targaryen where like the entire final season of Game of Thrones was trying to tell me that Daenerys Targaryen was this horrible person all along. And I was like, cool story.
Liz: I didn’t watch that.
Anika: And I feel the same way with La’an where I’m like, yeah, so you are just using this weird biological determinism argument to justify this heel turn that you have decided is happening. And in both cases, I do believe that it was always the plan, but they didn’t do it well.
Liz: And I also feel like as with Christine, we need a reason to hate La’an so that we’re happy when Spock breaks up with her.
Anika: Right. Yes. Which is just, you know what? Spock isn’t perfect. I’m sorry if that destroys 60 years of Star Trek continuity, but it’s okay for Spock to A, be hurt in a relationship, B, be the person, like be flawed, to be the person that is the reason that a relationship ends. It doesn’t have to happen to him at all the time.
Liz: And that’s the thing. They tried to paint him as a victim with Christine. And I just didn’t see it because Christine did nothing wrong. He was the one continually ignoring what she wanted. And I guess they’re doing a better job of making La’an villainous. But it’s also like, I feel like the villains here are the writers.
Anika: Yeah. It’s this weird, we have to protect Spock at all costs, that I think infantilizes him as a character.
Liz: I mean, it comes back to his hallucination of T’Pring apologizing for breaking up with him. And it’s like, if I want stories where every woman who is involved with Spock is actually a malicious harpy, AO3 exists. Many decades of fan fiction exist.
Anika: Okay. Yeah. So I just want to say one more thing about Kirk and La’an. Unrelated shipping, because I have thoughts on that too. But it was interesting to me that after stabbing Kirk, and he’s like bleeding out on the floor, and La’an is lording over him, and she basically says, your infant son is going to die exactly the same way as I have just killed you. That’s what she says. And the depressing part of this is that it’s true.
Liz: Look, maybe when she was working for the time cops that one time, she got a brief preview of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.
Anika: I’m sure it’s meant to be meaningful and poignant, but that is so dark. That is so dark.
Liz: Yeah. It felt manipulative. I think in a better series, I would really be into that moment, because I love when characters predict the stuff that’s going to come true, and it seems too horrible to contemplate, and all of that. But in this specific situation with these specific characters and these specific writers, I was like, I see what you did there, and I refuse to be manipulated.
Anika: I mean, my mind immediately went to, that’s why he agreed to allegedly Carol’s demands, to be not a part of David’s life. That he thought, if I give up David, this horrible thing won’t happen.
Liz: I mean, I can see that, but where’s the logic? Kirk is a smart, logical, strategic guy.
Anika: That’s my thing, is that it’s so cheap. It cheapens that. It would be a stronger choice on his part, if he did it actually selflessly. It was like, oh, Carol is saying that my being a part of David’s life intermittently is actually harmful. And because I had that relationship with my father, I know that it’s true. And therefore I will make the decision that is the hardest for me, but is the best option for David and for Carol.
And I think that is a good decision. Again, it’s not like what we want. It’s not what anyone wants, but it’s the best of all the bad decisions. And the idea that he makes the best of all the bad decisions based on something that La’an said about David’s future, that turns out to be true, is just really yucky to me. It’s like very weird Christian destiny stuff that I don’t like.
Liz: And it just doesn’t work for a Star Trek universe. In Game of Thrones, in the books, Cersei as a child sees a witch who gives her a prophecy and basically predicts every terrible thing she’s going to do. And she’s so upset that she refuses to let it come true, and in doing so makes it come true. And it’s great. But that’s Game of Thrones. And this is Star Trek. And they have quite different attitudes to, for example, prophecy.
Anika: However, Strange New Worlds is entirely based on prophecy.
Liz: I mean, yeah, yeah. It is George R. R. Martin going back and adding a witch later.
Anika: It’s really, yeah. That really bothered me both on the fact that they had La’an do it. So La’an, this person that Kirk has this weird relationship with-
Liz: Quasi-relationship, relationship, yeah, yeah.
Anika: Is the person, like she’s the witch in this story that tells him the bad things that are gonna happen to his son. And it’s just really, I just really don’t like it. I don’t like the cloud that is now over all of them. It’s really, it feels damning to me.
Liz: And in both, with both Kirk and Spock, she’s like the evil fairy who’s ruining their lives. And I just simply don’t like that decision as a means of writing a woman.
Anika: Right, yeah, it’s, yeah, yeah. I have a lot of notes about those ideas. And then there’s Una.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Who’s barely in the episode.
Liz: They remembered she’s an alien.
Anika: They remembered she’s an alien. They remembered she has magic blood that can transform people, like poor Captain Batel. Yes. And they gave her, okay, so to be clear, Una is not real. The Una that does this is not real. She is a hallucination of Spock’s in particular.
There’s kind of an interesting thing here where Spock knows that Una is also an alien who is trying to be human, like him, right? And she’s struggling with the same issues of I want to be human, but I also want to be alien because being me is actually stronger and better. But her whole, I’m gonna cut the magic out of, it’s rough. Again, when you think about it as the layer of this is actually Spock, everything that happens in those sickbay scenes is actually only Spock.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: That’s interesting. It is interesting to me, but it doesn’t tell me anything about Una. And I’m a little upset that they used Una to like, it’s another instance of Una being a prop for the storyline.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: And it really drives home that we’ve never had a scene where Spock and Una talk about their shared experience of being outsiders and aliens and trying to conform. And we never explore that side of Una, except when it’s convenient to the plot.
Anika: Right. Right. So in fairness, Pike’s, the fake Pike hallucination of him cutting off his fingers.
Liz: Which I very much did not need. But I do want to say that Anson Mount was great in that scene. And I think he’s really good at playing terrible versions of himself or Pike.
Anika: I would say Anson Mount, when he’s playing explicitly not Pike, like a fake version of Pike, which he’s done three or four or five times in the series, he was so good in that scene.. That scene was hilarious. It was so funny to me. It was so well played. And to be fair, starting with Rebecca Romijn, and moving on to Anson Mount and Pike, it was gross and horrible and unnecessary in many ways, but hilarious.
Liz: I have to admit that I missed some of the moments because I was busy covering my eyes. And I should also say I watched the screener at work. I was at the office because I was just had a really busy week last week, and that was the only time I had. And yeah, did not care for that.
I think it’s very funny and sad that Sam Neill died a week ago as we record, and so far we are two for two with cheap knockoffs of iconic Sam Neill movies. It is pretty rough.
Anika: I mean, I think the generous version is, look at this nice homage to Sam Neill, who 100 percent deserves every homage. I’m going to put the positive spin on it. But yeah, but I just have to, I have to because I am harsh on Anson Mount and Pike a lot of the time. But when Anson Mount is not playing Pike, but is playing a fake version of Pike, he is excellent.
Liz: I think that if we got a Mirror Universe episode, he would be great in it.
Anika: Oh my God, yes. He’s really good at playing camp. He’s absolutely so good at too much. And Pike is not that. And I’m glad that at least this silly show playing the genre allows him to really shine in those moments.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. And like we talked last week about the need to write to an actor’s strength and here they’re doing it. So well done.
Anika: Yes, exactly.
Liz: I will say his scene with La’an at the end where he’s like, I’m just not going to put any of that in my report. That’s not good leadership. I’m sorry. You’re still actually quite bad at your job. And when La’an cracks and goes on a killing spree, that’s on you.
Anika: I mean, yeah, you pointed out that she has this scene with Pike instead of Spock showing that she in certain ways and in certain means, she trusts Pike more than Spock, which is interesting. It’s interesting. And so what I have written here is Pike is an okay mentor and a terrible leader. He’s a terrible leader because as you said, when she goes crazy and murders a bunch of people, it’ll be entirely on him for not flagging the facts that she was thinking about murdering a bunch of people.
Liz: Yeah. That’s kind of a classic workplace red flag.
Anika: Just saying. But the reason that he’s an okay mentor is that his instinct of you are not the worst thing you’ve ever done is good.
Liz: Oh yeah, that’s great.
Anika: That is the correct message that he should be giving her. It’s only that he then takes it a step further to say, and therefore we will hide it from everyone. That’s the problem.
Liz: It comes back to that thing with Uhura last season, where if he likes you, you don’t have to deal with any consequences.
Anika: Right. It’s just a little bit weird. It’s just like, I don’t know about that. And this brings me to my, as I said last week, it would be amazing if at the end of this series, episode is like this amazing revelation of, Pike was wrong at all of these instances. And now we are going to, of course, correct. And that’s why it’s different moving forward. I can imagine a series where all of this is on purpose, and it’s building to something different and amazing. That is not this series. This is definitely not this series. This series is way too much in love with itself and in love with Pike to be doing that.
Liz: At this point, I think the best possible ending for Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is the reveal that it was all just like adventures that Pike was having via the Talosians in his beep chair.
Anika: Oh my God, that would be amazing. I actually enjoyed that. That’s actually sweet. Yeah.
Liz: So like it would be terrible because it was all a dream. Endings are inherently terrible, but the damage it’s done to canon would be rectified.
Anika: Even just something is at the end of the day inconsequential as the Kirk, Carol and David subplot, which like it has nothing to do with the galaxy. Right? It has nothing to do with the Star Trek universe. It is very specific to those characters. And yet, it really feels like they are doing a disservice to what we already knew. Yes. By retconning this weird Kirk really struggled and wanted this deep relationship with Carol and or David.
Liz: He really wanted to be a good dad, guys. He just had to go to this conference.
Anika: No, I wanna just put it out there. I went to conferences with my dad. I am the eldest of four and all four of us, like my father took me and then he took my next brother and then he took my next brother and then he took my youngest brother and then the last one he took all of us. He didn’t stop being a dad to go to a conference. He just took us along and that’s legitimately that is how I parented my kids.
I went to school and I took my kid along with me. I went to a convention and I took my kid along with me. Whatever I was doing, I was pursuing my education, I was pursuing my career, I was just having fun and going to an anime convention or a Star Trek convention and I took my kid along with me because I was a mom. Yeah.
Liz: My dad did his PhD when I was in high school and I remember sitting quietly in sessions and tutorials with my book, half reading and half listening.
Anika: Exactly. Exactly. Me and the dad, we both were in college when my daughter was born and we just continued to go to college and traded off the kid. You can do it. If that’s what Kirk really wanted, you could do it. You could invite Carol and David along with him to the conference.
Liz: Yeah. He could simply put his ambitions of captaincy on hold, not even forever, just for a few years and take a starbase assignment. Until David was about five.
Anika: Right? So it’s just sort of gross to me that it’s this whole, and they did it.
The Greatest Generation is doing the first season of Star Trek again, and they did “Haven” recently, and there’s this whole thing in that where Riker is like mad at Troi for having this other relationship when he refuses to commit to her because he has his career ambitions, and it’s just, dude, she literally is on the ship with you. She is not in the way of your career ambitions.
It’s so frustrating to me that men have this idea that if they have a family, it’s the end of the world. If women have a family, they are no longer treated as anything, they are mother first then.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. Those attitudes are changing – all of my friends with kids, their partners are very involved, they’re stay-at-home dads in some cases, there’s not this assumption that the mother is going to do everything. And then Strange New Worlds is acting like it’s still the 1990s.
Anika: Yeah, and I will say, my daughter was born in the 1990s, and my partner was a partner. Legitimately, we traded the kid back and forth so that we could both pursue our lives.
At my baby shower, his grandmother came and talked to me and was like, I guess you’re giving up on college and you’re giving up on your career, and oh, so sad for you. She had this whole vision of me being this fallen woman, who was never going to make anything out of myself. And I was like, no. I went back to school when my daughter was two months old, and I just took her with me.
Liz: And that’s really hard work.
Anika: I was going to say, was that an ideal situation? No, it was not in any way an ideal situation. However, we got through it. And I was like, you know what? They should accommodate me. And I just went on with my life with this assumption that I could do it anyway. If they’re going to make accommodations for a man, why aren’t they going to make accommodations for a woman?
Liz: And so this idea that Carol has the baby and is continuing with her career and she’s got her dream job, and how dare she not pick up the phone to Jim after a week and a half.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: The assumption that he is not going to give anything up is very frustrating.
Anika: Right. Exactly. Exactly. That’s the whole thing, is that you make compromises. Everybody makes compromises. And if the father really wants to be in the baby’s life, then he will make compromises, too. And Jim is not making compromises. He is refusing to make compromises and expecting Carol to accommodate him. And no, that’s what I have to say to that.
So any woman and any man can have a baby and continue to have their own life and continue to pursue their dreams. And it is going to be harder, but it’s not impossible. But everybody has to give up something. And if you don’t give up something, then I’m not going to give up something for you.
If I’m in Carol’s position, I’m going to be like, well, I waited around for two weeks and you didn’t show up. And then I had to go live my life and move on with my research and continue the things that are important to me. And you are free to come to me. You are free to take a leave of absence and come hang out with me where I am doing my thing. It’s not her fault. It’s not her fault. No, justice for Carol Marcus.
Liz: Justice for Carol Marcus. Justice and a really good family lawyer.
Anika: So shout out to my kid’s dad because he was good. That’s all I have to say.
Liz: Does this bring us to shipping news?
Anika: I hope so.
Liz: Okay. Okay. Spock and La’an and Kirk, they all go to this conference together. I do have to ask, was there only one bed?
Anika: There definitely was only one bed. I’m sorry. Throughout this episode, I came up with four separate fanfics that I was like, I could write that. This was definitely the first one. The Spock, La’an and Kirk go to a conference together. And because of Starfleet’s, I guess there isn’t money or whatever, but I still think that they would only get one room.
And so, yeah, there’s only one bed. They all get drunk at the cocktail hour. So there’s always a cocktail happy hour at conferences. That can happen at conferences 100%. That happened. And just the way they were acting, what? I would love to know what conference these three people are at at the same time.
Liz: I was going to say, they all have very different specialties.
Anika: It does not make sense for Spock and La’an to be at a conference together. It definitely does not make sense for Spock and La’an and Kirk to be at a conference together.
Liz: You guys have different jobs.
Anika: It’s so good. It’s so amazing. So that is ripe for fanfiction. And I expect many versions. But if we take the three and we just look at the twos, we get some interesting things. So Spock and La’an is like allegedly a canonical relationship that we are definitely supposed to be invested in. But I would like to posit that the show doesn’t actually ship them.
Liz: Oh, no, not at all. I mean, it barely seems to like La’an as a person. And yeah, it feels like they went, oh, we really need to put Spock in a relationship. And I guess she’ll do, maybe.
Anika: It feels very uninvested in this relationship. Yeah, it was bad last week. It was worse this week. It’s just really, really, we are going through the motions, but we don’t care at all. And partially it’s because they know it’s doomed. This relationship was doomed from the beginning, but not to be me, but Anakin and Padme are doomed from the beginning too. And The Clone Wars puts a lot of effort into making you care. You’re supposed to build on that. You’re supposed to be like, oh my gosh, this is so doomed. We’re going to make you hurt.
Liz: And you’re going to love it.
Anika: That’s the purpose of having this relationship. And they’re completely, there is nothing. I don’t care. I don’t care. I care more about Spock and Kirk and La’an and Kirk than Spock and La’an, fully. I just, it’s sad. It’s sad to me. I don’t think the show ships Spock and Kirk either, but they at least know that Spock and Kirk matters to people. So they’re pretending like they care.
Liz: I think it’s just generic sexism, but a lot of the time these relationships between Spock and Kirk and La’an or Spock or Kirk and Carol feel like they’re written by boy slashes who hate women. Yeah. And I don’t think that’s it. I think they just hate women. Yeah.
Anika: It’s really rough. So Spock and Kirk, like, they, there’s no chemistry in this episode between Spock and Kirk, in my opinion.
Liz: No.
Anika: However, I fully expect many people to find lots of chemistry between them.
Liz: And I also think that they deserve each other just for how selfish they both are.
Anika: That’s so true. And I’m just going to jump down to Jim and La’an, because they’re the third in the trio, right?
Liz: Yes.
Anika: He definitely ships it. Jim is definitely like, I had this thing with Carol and it got in the way with me having something with La’an, but I wish that wasn’t true. I really wish that she wasn’t pregnant that time when La’an was like, I like you, because I would rather be in that relationship than in this really complicated, gross one with Carol.
Liz: Yeah, and I hate that too, because it makes him look like such an asshole.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: And it’s like, dude, you chose to have a relationship and you chose to have a child.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: And now complaining that the partner with whom you had that relationship and child is making it hard because she expects you to be part of the baby’s life, the baby that you both agreed to have. Oh, what a bitch.
Anika: So what I mean about this is that there is this scene in this episode where Jim is like, I want to talk to you about something and then something happens. And then La’an is like, what do you want to talk to me about? And he says, oh, nothing. And it’s very clear to me that he wants to talk about how he’s totally crushing on her and wishes that they had a relationship and feels bad that he didn’t explore that when he had the chance.
And I guess to his credit, he doesn’t put that on her because she’s fully in a relationship. They just spent about a week together. Hello. It’s gross for you to be like, I was in a relationship when you came on to me, but I would like to come on to you while you’re in a relationship and that will make us even. And then we should totally just screw over all the people that we’re involved with and have a relationship. That’s what it came off across as and I was like, no, which is upsetting to me because I actually feel like I like them more than any of the other options.
Liz: So it’s a problem.
Anika: It’s a problem. But anyway, do you want to deal with Spock and his many relationships or Jim and his many relationships first?
Liz: Let’s get Spock out of the way. I feel like he’s hallucinating T’Pring because he is also having regrets about a relationship that he should have moved on from. And again, it’s gross. I said that this writing doesn’t respect women, but honestly, it doesn’t really respect men either.
Anika: No. I’m hugely here for the Spock pretends that T’Pring is there to tell him all of the things that he needs to hear from T’Pring. I’m hugely here for that whole thing. It’s really fun for me. But what we learn from that whole experience is that Spock is not, like he is mad at himself about how he handled the whole T’Pring situation.
Liz: Which he should be.
Anika: And he’s not over it. He has unresolved feelings slash issues with the whole T’Pring situation and to be honest, the whole Christine situation. Now before we get to Christine, which the best part of this episode, obviously.
Liz: Once again, they hold Jess Bush for the last scene.
Anika: The fact that Spock, like he used Una’s first name because you know how like is this huge thing in TOS whenever Kirk, whenever Spock uses Jim, it’s a big deal, right? And so the fact that he calls Una by her name, Una in that scene, I was like, yeah. And I will admit that I am a long time Spock and Una shipper. So I’m willing to like read into things where it’s not there. And I’m also willing to admit that it’s not there.
However, I am willing to read into this scene. Because I was like, you know what? He imagined fake Una. He imagined fake Pike makes 100% sense. He’s dealing with the fact of turning into his father, but he doesn’t want to imagine fake Sarek because he’s not supposed to be talking to fake Sarek, right? So he has to imagine fake Pike as his dad. And so I understand why Pike is in this scene. I understand why Sarek is in this scene, but Una is in this scene because he has some unresolved Una issues. And perhaps they have something to do with his mommy issues. That is fair.
Liz: I can imagine it. That was my theory.
Anika: Absolutely. That’s true. But that doesn’t like negate the idea that he is also a little bit attractive. Because have you seen Una?
Liz: You consider the actual Oedipus myth.
Anika: Yeah. Folly. So now let’s talk about Christine. And the absolute most best scene that ever happened. That was so for me.
Liz: So do you feel like she was kind of salty that Spock was hallucinating T’Pring?
Anika: Yes. I do feel that Christine is a little salty that Spock was hallucinating T’Pring because let’s be honest, it’s not like Christine is like Christine actually canonically has a chip on her shoulder about not being Spock’s one true love.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Even though she can do better.
Anika: Fully. And so of course, she’s going to be a little bit annoyed that if someone from Spock’s past is going to get between Spock and La’an, why is it T’Pring and not Christine? However, I would like to sit Christine down and explain that it is so much better that it is T’Pring and not her.
Because T’Pring is fake and he was using T’Pring to put all of his own insecurities. He put all of his own securities into T’Pring. And when he has left that situation, when he has put T’Pring and La’an behind him, and needs to deal with his own issues about all of the things that happened, he calls real Christine. And he makes it so that they are alone, and they are completely private, and it is just Christine, the only person that he talks to about all of this stuff that he is dealing with.
Liz: And I got to say, this still doesn’t reflect well on Christine, because we’re back to that weird jealousy subplot, and I don’t understand. But girl, you can do better, and also you have a fiance. But whatever. This show, again, does not respect its characters.
Anika: It is a little bit in line with future Christine – TOS Christine would totally. So I’m okay with it. I will let Christine have this flaw.
Liz: I can see that, but also I think that was the sexist writing of the 1960s. And what if we did not reproduce it?
Anika: That’s just asking too much.
Liz: I’m sorry.
Anika: You are correct. You are correct. I am willing to accept it because I love that scene so much. Okay, so here are the reasons. Number one, Spock didn’t ask for M’Benga or someone who wasn’t personally involved with him.
Liz: He asked for Christine.
Anika: He asked Christine to come to his quarters, which is super loaded, and to help him because she’s the person on the whole ship that he trusts with this problem.
Liz: They became friends because she was helping him with his Vulcan issues. This is something that they have had together for a long time. It’s how their relationship started.
Anika: It’s their foundation. And so it makes sense, it makes perfect sense.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: So, second, she tells her whole story about how the war affected her and how it was rough and how it was terrible. I was like, Oh my God. I cannot believe that A, they remembered this happened because Strange New Worlds is not great at continuity. And so the fact that they remembered that they gave this whole subplot to Christine and that Spock knew about it enough that she could explain this in a way that she didn’t have to explain everything. I was like, wow, this is amazing that this is happening. So that was really great. Even though it was a little out of left fields and unnecessary in the moment, I was 1000% here for it.
That they both, after that point, both, so Spock was vulnerable with Christine and then Christine was vulnerable with Spock. And then they came to this agreement of we respect each other and we’re going to now go out into the world. And she did, yes, okay.
So she asked about T’Pring, she asked why T’Pring. Subtext and not me, right? But his answer was sort of good. He had an answer and it wasn’t because T’Pring is like the person I’m supposed to be with. It was because T’Pring is a mouthpiece for Vulcan. It was like, whoa, this is good. This is we’re all, and she understood. And she like accepted that and was like, oh.
I wanna write this story where Christine is like, oh wow. I realize now that I shouldn’t have asked that. I was jealous and that was silly. And in reality, the fact that we were having this conversation was proof that I didn’t need to be jealous.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: It was good, it was good. That whole scene, it was a little clunky. I would just say, because this is Star Trek: Strange New Worlds and they can’t not be clunky. But no, it was by far the best scene in the episode and it just made me happy on every level. It made me like, oh my, it was like throwing me a bone to say like, hey, guess what? Spock and Christine are still a thing. And their relationship is actually important.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I love you were not wrong to be invested.
Anika: I loved everything.
Liz: Yeah. And then we get to the Jim stuff. And the show definitely doesn’t ship Jim and Spock, but I think they deserve each other because they’re both the worst.
Anika: Fair.
Liz: No one ships Jim and Carol, not even Carol.
Anika: Literally no one ships Jim and Carol, which is, I’m going to say a wasted opportunity. Imagine if Carol was a person.
Liz: Oh my God.
Anika: I know that we know these people are doomed. There’s this whole thing with all of them, with every relationship in a prequel is like they’re doomed. But again, I am mad at the world saying this, but if I have to say that the Star Wars prequels did it better, there’s something really wrong with what you’re doing. Come on, guys, get it together.
Liz: Carol, we only see her in one movie, but she is such a fun, vivid, powerful figure, and she just comes in with so much personality. I would have loved to get a glimpse of her.
Anika: Oh my gosh. As a younger woman. Yes. It feels like such a missed opportunity, and it’s because they don’t consider her important. They consider Jim’s feelings important. They don’t care about Carol or David at all.
Liz: No. And once again, it’s simply that Strange New Worlds doesn’t like Star Trek for the reasons that I like Star Trek.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. And then he definitely ships himself with La’an, which is gross. But I like the revisiting of his friendship with Uhura.
Anika: And I actually that again, that was also a really wonderful scene. I love watching. That’s the thing – I enjoy the Kirk building relationship with Spock, Kirk building relationship with Scotty, Kirk building relationship with Uhura. That is actually poignant.
Liz: Good.
Anika: And I want to see that. I would never turn it away. The scene with Uhura was beautiful. It was funny. It was sweet. They just meshed. There was totally – I put it in shipping news. I don’t ship them at all as a romance. And neither do they. They’re just fully, very comfortable friends. And they like each other. And it’s just like, look at these two people who like each other. And you are going to have this really long, wonderful relationship. And we get to see it at the beginning. That’s beautiful.
Liz: And it comes back to that thing in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds where the best writing for relationships between men and women is when it’s totally platonic and also Pike isn’t there. I realized I had to put that in because I remembered Una. And Pike. And they interact a lot and it’s not good.
Anika: Yeah. No. God, Una. I, as much as I am mad about what they did with La’an, Una is the person, because she was conceived at the very beginning and they are squandering all of her potential.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: It’s rough. Sometimes I think about watching “The Cage” and seeing Number One for the first time. And sometimes I think it would be really interesting if they made a show where she was a character.
Anika: Yeah. Yeah, it’s really rough, guys. She has so much potential and she is fully the character that is just whatever the plot is this week. That’s it.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost a Deanna Troi-ification, where you have this female character who’s introduced as this intellectual powerhouse and she’s strong and she’s smart and she’s sexy, and she’s a lamp. She’s a prop.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: My final note on this episode is that they kept talking about Division 12 and it feels like they’re setting something up for the future. But what I actually just want is a tie-in comic with mostly original characters, where it’s like The X-Files of Starfleet. Yeah. That’s all I want.
Anika: Yeah. Division 12, you’re absolutely right. That definitely stood out as this is going to be a spinoff or at least a comic.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah.
Anika: Yeah. You’re fully, yes.
Liz: My pitch for a Division 12 comic is that the group is led by Prime Lorca, and we just never find out how he got back to our universe.
Anika: Amazing.
Liz: Like how we never find out exactly how Shaxs came back to life.
Anika: I like that. I like that. I think that’s fine.
Liz: I just think sometimes you need a little mystery.
Okay. Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at antimatterpod.com including links to our social media, credits for our theme music, and transcripts of our episodes. We are now up to date with transcripts for Season 1 of Star Trek: Discovery and Season 1 of Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, and I have started on Season 3 of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
You can follow us on Facebook, Tumblr, TikTok, Instagram, and Blue Sky all at antimatterpod, and on Mastodon at antimatterpod@tenforward.social.
If you like us, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your podcasts. The more reviews, the easier it is for new listeners to find us. We’ll be back next week to discuss the next episode of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’s “Human Best Friend.”
Anika: Is it a puppy? I hope it’s a puppy!