Anika and Liz don their finest 2017/2257 outfits and go to a party.
Then they do it all over again.
Then they do it all over again.
Yes, we are caught a time loop and discussing Star Trek: Discovery‘s “Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad”!
- “This, to me, is like if Strange New Worlds was good.”
- Is this Anika’s least favourite episode of Discovery?
- Ash is happier and more successful as a human being than he was as a Klingon
- Making Harry Mudd spend time with his wife is not a good or suitable punishment for his crimes? It is highkey misogynistic? Do better, show!
- Liz is here to pitch Star Trek: Stella, where Meg Stalter plays Stella Mudd as she roams the galaxy being a sociopathic nepo baby with an amazing wardrobe, who disintegrates people
Transcript
(Please note this transcript was generated automatically by Apple Podcasts, and though it was edited by a human, some errors may remain.)
Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. Today, we are discussing Star Trek: Discovery Season 1, Episode 7, “Magic To Make The Sanest Man”, or Anika, go mad.
Liz: Foreshadowing the fact that you’re not a big fan of this episode.
Anika: Nope.
Liz: Which I think is funny because a lot of people in Season 1 were like, “Oh, this is the best episode. This is finally proper Star Trek and I like it.”
I enjoy it, but I think that most of the criticisms you’re going to offer are reasonable and re-watching it, it kind of had Strange New Worlds vibes. Not in a bad way, just in a, oh, this is a throwaway and almost standalone episode that uses ideas we’ve seen before to build the characters. This to me is like if Strange New Worlds was good.
Anika: How you just described it is like, oh, well, of course, this is everyone’s favorite episode.
Liz: No, I know, I know, it’s-
Anika: Yeah, yeah.
Liz: I also want to say that I may have skipped this episode in previous re-watches, because even though I like it, it’s just kind of lightweight and I don’t really care about it.
You’ve complained in the past about time loop episodes and time travel and resets, that it gives us character development that doesn’t stick. I think this episode does something interesting and different with that, in that there’s a lot of character development which is erased from history, but then we see it play out again over a longer period. We see Michael and Ash fall in love and we see Michael open up and all the stuff that they have to speed run in this episode. But that also makes it very skippable.
Anika: Yeah. Time loops are just very tricky. If it’s a plot driven time loop like “Cause and Effect”, it’s really fun to watch. But if it’s a character driven one, it’s harder because I get attached to what happens. Yeah.
Liz: Whereas I like “Cause and Effect”, I think it’s a good episode, but I don’t really enjoy watching it, because it’s a Beverly episode, but we don’t learn anything new about the characters.
Anika: Yeah. Right. Absolutely nothing happens to the characters in that episode, which is why it’s fun to watch for me, but it doesn’t make me angry because it doesn’t matter. It never mattered, so it doesn’t matter.
So yeah, everything that happens with Michael and Stamets in this episode, I really like their interactions and the growth of Michael’s character through her interactions. Ash, I love him. He’s my puppy and I just adore him.
But I hate the conceit of the episode. I hate Harry Mudd. I hate his time crystal and his plan and everything that he does. As you say, nothing that happens in this episode matters. Because you’re right that the stuff with Ash and Michael and Stamets happens again, so that doesn’t matter. The stuff with Mudd, which I don’t like anyway, affects nothing. We don’t see him again. It doesn’t matter.
Liz: I kind of wish we did see Mudd again, because unlike you, I enjoy him and I enjoy Rainn Wilson’s performance. But I feel like Mudd in Discovery is so specifically tied to Lorca, like Mudd and Pike would not be fun.
Anika: Yeah, it’s kind of like when Q shows up in other Star Treks, not TNG.
Liz: Oh yeah, and it’s like, oh no, oh no.
Anika: No, this isn’t working for me.
Liz: No, there’s a special relationship there. And I do think that Mudd is the Q that Lorca deserves.
Anika: Yeah, and I think that Rainn Wilson does a good job. I just think that this version of Mudd makes the TOS Mudd so much worse.
Liz: And he wasn’t great to start with!
Anika: And he wasn’t great to start with. And the fact that there’s never any consequence really bothers me. There’s no consequences for him ever. I know people are going to argue that. And they’re also going to be like, but Anika, you don’t believe in prison. And yeah, you’re right. I don’t believe in prison. I do believe in atonement. I do believe in restorative justice. And that doesn’t happen. Mudd never has to accept that he did anything wrong ever. He just has to accept that he’s being punished. He’s being punished by, again, spending time with his wife, which is not a punishment.
We’ll start at the beginning, though, with the party. I like the party.
Liz: The party is so good. Michael’s social anxiety ahead of the party is so relatable. She is the most real character in all of Star Trek for this. As a set piece, it’s so good. There are so many extras. We see our Discovery lesbians who will never revisit, but we love them.
Anika: I love them. Those are my background lesbians.
Liz: The glowing leis are iconic. We learn that Ash Tyler is much more successful as a human than as a Klingon, which I think is really sweet and kind of sad, but he gets to thrive. He’s so much happier as Ash than Voq.
Anika: It’s because all of the things that were a deficit when he was Voq are a positive as Ash.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. But also, Voq is a weirdly intense and off-putting guy, and Ash is just charming and earnest, and he’s still intense, but he has a sense of humor about it.
It’s as if, in having part of his identity erased, he was able to find the core of himself that experiences joy. I’m not saying that being brainwashed and transformed into another species is an appropriate treatment for anxiety or whatever, but in this very specific case of Voq, there’s something to it.
Anika: I just love that Ash arrives on the ship. He is that guy. Everyone is like, oh, Mr. Popular. Our new security chief is amazing, and we all want to know him. Have you ever seen the really terrible rom-com, Never Been Kissed?
Liz: Yes, I have.
Anika: He reminds me of the David Arquette character so much. Because David Arquette just shows up in the high school, and instantly every single person there knows him, and he’s able to make his sister popular just by association. Because he’s cool. Ash has that same thing, where he shows up, and everyone is like, you are so hot and so cool and so charming, and you make Michael better, too. That’s the thing.
Liz: He uses his cool guy energy to make Michael in the lunchroom politics of Discovery.
Anika: He basically invites her in, like, she goes to that party and she knows the other people, but Tilly is already on her side, right? But basically Tilly is her only friend at this point.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And Ash, it’s not awkward for her to be there, because the coolest people, Tilly and Ash, are both glomming onto her and are excited that she’s there.
Liz: Yeah. It’s sad to think about how much of an outsider Ash is going to be, you know, eating lunch alone after the reveal, and also he did murder Culber, and there are social consequences for that, even if he was brainwashed at the time. I’m not saying that social consequences are unreasonable. I just think that the contrast is sad. And if Discovery is a teen drama, the Discovery teen drama AU, where you sit within the mess hall is really important. Like poor Ash, my poor little guy.
Anika: I know, our poor little guy.
Liz: I’m not saying he did nothing wrong, but he didn’t have a choice.
Anika: Yeah. And I mean, and the thing is that Ash gets all those consequences and Mudd doesn’t. And I don’t know. It’s fine. It’s fine. I think that Ash does go through this whole apology and atonement and amends phase.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: You know, and he doesn’t get to go to the future with Discovery. He doesn’t get – his story ends here ambiguously.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: You know? So I don’t know. I’m looking forward to discussing it in depth when we get to those episodes.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But I really enjoy how popular Ash is and how everyone just sort of, he’s like bros with everybody immediately.
Liz: And he has such bro energy. But in that really positive way, where sometimes you meet a guy who’s a total jock and you’re like, oh, this guy’s going to be an asshole. But actually he’s just the sweetest person. That’s Ash Tyler.
Anika: Not to bring in more rom-coms from the 2000s. He’s Troy Bolton in High School Musical.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Because he’s the best at basketball and the cool dude, but he also has this very sensitive sweet side that comes out when he’s doing his acting and his singing. Yeah. He’s just a good guy who gets along with all sides of the cafeteria. That’s literally what the movie is about.
Liz: Yeah. This makes me think that we’re talking about Discovery as a teen drama, and you look at the actual Star Trek teen drama, and Ash is the guy that Darem Reymi thinks he is.
Anika: Yes. Absolutely. Okay. Now I’m like, Voq to Ash to Darem is very interesting. I want to have a think.
Liz: What I like about this episode, love would be too strong a word, but what I enjoy about it is the glimpse of Discovery as a working ship and a social ship. Somehow bringing Ash aboard and integrating Michael more into the crew. She has a title, if not a rank, now. It starts to feel like a real community. I think this episode gives us a glimpse of how that works.
Anika: In previous Star Trek, whenever they had parties, they were for dignitaries and they were a chore. No one wants to be there. And this party is just for them. It’s just like, we are going to celebrate the fact that we are still alive, really. You know, the war hasn’t gotten to us. And so we’re going to keep fighting, but we’ve had some wins and we’re going to celebrate our crew working together. And it’s super fun and just completely off-duty games and dancing and drinking and socializing. It’s a chore to Michael, but even Michael has fun.
Liz: Right, right. And a key element, I think, is that Saru and Lorca aren’t there. This is not a party for the senior officers.
Anika: Right.
Liz: Ash is the most senior officer there.
Anika: Right, right. Yes. It’s really great. But it is interrupted by the flat.
Liz: Alas. Before we move on from the party, I just want to flag something — the other thing that separates it from parties we’ve seen in other Star Treks, which is the use of more contemporary music and specifically hip-hop. And specifically, it’s “We Tryin’ to Stay Alive” by Wyclef Jean, which is an iconic song that I do think could survive into the 23rd century. And because this is Disco, it samples “Stayin’ Alive” by the Bee Gees. So it’s disco on a Disco.
Anika: Disco on a Disco. I love it.
Liz: And some of the worst people in fandom were really angry that not only was popular music being played but Black popular music. And yeah.
Anika: Well, those people are no fun.
Liz: Exactly. I just thought it was a really smart choice.
Anika: No, I love it. I love the atmosphere — that party, I want to go to that party. As soon as Michael walks in, I’m like, yes, I want to be here. The music, the lighting, the glowing leis — you said it — just the whole thing. Everybody’s having fun. I want to be a part of the Discovery crew so that I can go to this party.
There is a space whale who is sick. I love the space whale. They have to bring it on to the ship and figure out what’s wrong with it and take care of it because it’s an endangered species.
Liz: I love that the Federation has an Endangered Species Act.
Anika: As they should.
Liz: We just so rarely hear about the civilian laws of the Federation. It’s almost as if they’re an afterthought.
Anika: I mean, they’re definitely an afterthought, but this is — yeah, the whole thing is very much that if not for that act, Lorca would definitely not be doing any of this.
Liz: Oh no.
Anika: He basically says that texturally.
Liz: The bit where he’s like, weren’t they hunted to extinction? So you know what happened to the Gormagander in the Mirror Universe.
Anika: Yeah, exactly. Oh, okay. Got it.
Liz: What we can take from this is that the Gormagander is tasty.
Anika: That’s so disturbing. Anyway, so they bring the space whale, the Gormagander, into the flight deck. And it turns out that Harry Mudd is inside it.
Liz: I’m sorry.
Anika: Waiting to pounce, wearing a ridiculous helmet.
Liz: Isn’t it an Andorian space helmet?
Anika: Sure. But he looks like the Tick, so I stand by ridiculous.
Liz: Look, Harry Mudd is a ridiculous person, so. I just want to say, I think Andorian Daft Punk go off.
Anika: Okay. So there’s Mudd, and basically the rest of the episode is the same 30 minutes over and over again as Michael and Stamets and eventually Ash figure out how they’re going to stop Mudd and use of the time crystal. And stop him from stealing Discovery, basically.
Liz: Yeah. He wants to steal Discovery and sell it to the Klingons, and that would be bad.
Anika: Right. Exactly.
Liz: Also along the way, he would like to get a little bit of cheeky revenge on Lorca, which is highly relatable.
Anika: He’s mad that Lorca left him behind in Klingon prison, so he basically made a deal with the Klingons that he would bring in Discovery for them. Which of course he did. That’s the most Harry Mudd thing I’ve ever heard. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Absolutely. That’s what he would do. And he knows it. He admitted in the previous episode that he’s a cockroach.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: So it’s fine. Whatever. He’s proud of himself. And he’s a criminal and he was left behind with the Klingons. And I can’t really fault him for making a deal with the Klingons. What else was he supposed to do? I get it. But I can fault him for existing. So I do. I just think he’s a horrible person.
Liz: I mean, for that, you’re just going to have to go back and argue with Gene Roddenberry or Gene Coon or someone about that.
Anika: But he’s just a horrible person.
Liz: I know.
Anika: He shouldn’t exist. That’s all. Sorry. But he is successful in terms of getting on and having this all happen over and over again. And he is slowly building to his full success.
But at the same time, it turns out that Stamets is not affected by the time crystal because of mushroom reasons. And I should say, tardigrade and mushrooms. He’s part tardigrade and part mushroom and can see through space-time or whatever. Stamets is unaffected by the time loop. And so it’s sort of suggested that he lives all of them the same way that Mudd does. Yes.
Liz: I think that’s it. I think he almost says that much. He’s getting more and more tired and ragged throughout the episode.
Anika: And I think what’s awesome about all of this is that Stamets realizes that Michael is the person that can help him. And so he focuses on her. Of everybody in the crew, he’s going to focus on getting Michael on his side and to help him figure this out because he’s like, you figured out the last issue. So he recognizes that Michael is someone who really likes puzzles, is good at this, and will bring something to it. And I think maybe the fact that he doesn’t know her as well is a bonus. It’s like he doesn’t bring Culber in, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And I don’t think he trusts Lorca.
Liz: No.
Anika: So obviously he wouldn’t. I think Stamets doesn’t trust a lot of people. I think that most of the people he trusts are Culber, and he’s decided to trust Michael.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. He doesn’t even bring Tilly in.
Anika: I think that’s great character work. For these two characters, because it’s basically saying that Stamets has to make a quick decision as to who he’s going to trust, and he decides on Michael. And as you say, even though they might not remember the specific details of every time this happens, that instinct to choose Michael will survive the time loop.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And they will be connected even though they don’t have the full feelings of it. Yeah.
Liz: As far as time loop episodes go, this is one of my favorites because we do learn a lot about the characters.
Anika: I love everything that happens with Stamets. He becomes someone that I like. I like the evolution of his relationship with Culber that we learn about in this episode. And I like how he trusts Michael and how they work together. And then Michael brings in Ash and Tilly — it’s like the team building again, assembling the band. I think that stuff, for such an early episode, mid-season of first season, is a really good exploration of who these characters are and how they’re learning to work together.
Liz: Yeah. And it’s also fun. I was kind of — I don’t re-watch this episode mostly because it is a bit of a standalone and it doesn’t have Kat. And part of me is like, okay, your Admiral is in Klingon prison and you’re throwing a party — what’s that all about? But it is an episode that I find fun to watch.
Anika: I get that. I mean, maybe I was upset about Kat being in prison, and that’s part of why I was — but I mean, I can tell you exactly why I don’t like this episode if we want to jump to that.
Liz: Look, let’s get it out of the way.
Anika: Okay. So my main issue is the murder montage that is played for laughs. And I understand that it’s kind of like how I hate that episode of Strange New Worlds that’s a farce. And I’m like, I get how this is supposed to be comedic, but I hate it because it’s offensive to me. And this is a similar knee-jerk reaction — no, that’s just not funny. I just cannot laugh at murder.
Liz: Look, I really like the murder montage, but I also think that’s a totally reasonable opinion. Comedy is very subjective, and you for some reason think that murder is wrong.
Anika: I have said many, many times, I am the person who doesn’t get the joke. I do not enjoy comedy the same way that I enjoy drama. It’s harder for me to enjoy comedy, and I always feel bad trying to explain it. It has to be clever.
Liz: No, I think that’s totally fair.
Anika: Comedy, for me to enjoy it — base humor is just never going to work on me. And I think that murder for comedic effect — and I understand that it’s a joke. I understand that Mudd is a villain, and we’re not supposed to be on his side, and we also are — Lorca is a jerk in this entire episode, and that was the point. I get it. But it’s not funny to me.
And as you said at the beginning, people say this was the most Star Trek episode, and I’m like, but it’s not, not at all. It doesn’t follow any of the Star Trek ideals, because it is laughing at blowing someone’s head off and all the different ways to kill him. And even if it’s reset each time, it still happened. And I can’t play along.
Liz: No, that is totally fair. I think it’s funny because it is so absolutely absurd and ridiculous. But I also struggle with a lot of comedy, and I don’t like watching Star Trek IV, The One With The Whales, because it relies on a very specific type of comedy that makes me uncomfortable. The whole fish out of water, ‘pretending you’re something that you’re not’ kind of comedy. So I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong. Comedy and what we find funny are so subjective.
Anika: It’s very subjective and it just doesn’t work for me. And so therefore, the conceit of this episode doesn’t work for me, because Mudd is supposed to be over the top and absurdist — as you just said. And if I can’t buy into that, then I’m not going to enjoy him.
Liz: No, that’s totally fair. I also think that in general, when Star Trek tries to do comedy, it can fail very badly. As we see with so much of Season 3 of Strange New Worlds, it’s hard to write good comedic Star Trek. And it’s honestly amazing that as much of it works as it does. And yeah, I mean, what I’m saying is, I don’t feel the same way you do, but I understand and I think your opinions are completely valid.
Anika: Thank you. I appreciate it. And I will say that I understand it’s supposed to be funny, and so people who find it funny are reacting correctly. I don’t judge you, is what I’m saying. I don’t think that people are laughing at murder. I think they’re laughing at the joke. And so I’m not going to hold it against anybody, but I can’t do it.
Liz: No, I think that’s fair.
Anika: And it gives me a bad taste — I never want to watch it again.
Liz: You don’t have to watch it ever again.
Anika: Yeah, but that’s the funny thing — this is the third time that I’ve re-watched this episode against my will.
Liz: Yeah, this feels like something you’ve done to yourself.
Anika: Because I did a Harry Mudd fashion project, and so I had to watch it for that. And I couldn’t — it’s a part of his oeuvre, right? I also watched the animated series Harry Mudd episodes.
Liz: See, I would have just looked at the screencaps. This is why you’re a total pro.
Anika: Those aren’t about the costumes as much as they’re about how the costumes contribute to the storytelling. So you have to watch the story in order to get that.
Liz: No, I see that.
Anika: So it’s fine. It’s okay.
Liz: Well, I appreciate your dedication to the craft.
Anika: And then, as I brought up earlier, I also don’t like the ending. Because I think they’re genuinely going, we figured out what to do with Mudd, and it’s Stella, his wife or fiancée or whatever, and her dad. And they’re all terrible people. All three of them are horrible people and they just leave. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they have to trick Mudd into summoning another ship, but that could just as easily have been a Federation starship that will take Harry away, put him under arrest, give him a fair trial and all of that. And then he turns to the camera and winks because he has such good lawyers on retainer or whatever.
Anika: But instead, we get this weird throwback. It’s all TOS’s fault because they started it. And I loved Stella when she appeared. I mean, I love seeing the real version — not the fake version that Harry makes. I liked seeing Stella as a real person. But again, she’s not a good person. And basically her dad has gotten her and Harry out of all of the bad things. And it’s just like, I don’t want this to be how this works. It’s 2017 — I don’t want this to be how this works.
Liz: And it is — I was thinking about the world building we’re getting here, where we see from the existence of Baron Mudd and Stella that there are civilian human arms dealers who are not affiliated with the Federation. And that’s really interesting — that tells us something about the society. But it’s also not really explored. It’s just a convenient way to get rid of Harry and throw an Easter egg to the TOS fans.
Anika: Yeah. It’s another one of those things — introduce a dark undertone and never mention it again.
Liz: No. And I think this brings me back to my feeling that this feels like Strange New Worlds — in that it’s introduced this interesting bit of world building but isn’t at all interested in the wider implications. And that’s okay because it’s a comedy, and comedy is not important.
Anika: Exactly.
Liz: You know, you’re overthinking it. It’s meant to be funny.
Anika: Okay, sorry. Ash literally disintegrates.
Liz: No.
Anika: And it’s like, oh, but it doesn’t matter because he comes back. And I was like, no, but he disintegrated.
Liz: Because knowing you didn’t like this episode, I kind of went in going, am I going to try and persuade Anika that this is in fact a good episode and she should like it? And I was like, no, she won’t enjoy that. I won’t enjoy that. And also I don’t care enough. And the thing is, I’m coming around to your side of things rather than arguing you around to my side. So well done.
Anika: I think that if I just watched it without thinking about it, without podcasting about it, without trying to make it fit into something other than what it is —
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: — I would enjoy it. And I feel like if I just watch this episode, it would still rub me the wrong way. But I do think that if you’re just watching along and you’re going, ha ha ha, Lorca’s a jerk and he’s getting his comeuppance and Mudd’s a jerk and he’s getting his comeuppance and that’s it — Michael and Ash kiss, it’s cute.
Liz: Yeah. But it’s also like — we’ve had this thing where you got a lot more out of season two of Strange New Worlds than I did. Because I wasn’t as engaged on any level. And I think that’s the other way around with us here. And that’s fine. But also, it’s not an episode worth fighting for. It’s not deep enough to reward the effort.
Anika: It’s much more an Easter egg episode.
Liz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s another reason it’s so popular. It came out in 2017, which is a time when people were all about Easter eggs in media. I will say I love Stella, and in my head she’s played by Megan Stalter from Hacks. And I just want to sit and think about her going around being super well-dressed and weird and chaotic and genuinely terrible. You wouldn’t watch this, but I would watch an entire series about Stella Grimes Mudd being a weird, creepy nepo baby who disintegrates people.
Anika: When you describe it that way — and I will say I am so much more willing to watch a terrible woman than a terrible man.
Liz: Oh yeah.
Anika: That’s my bias.
Liz: It’s very valid.
Anika: And I’m just saying it. I would be more interested in the Stella show than the Harry show.
Liz: That is the most valid.
Anika: So is it time for Wonderland?
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Because I’m really proud of this one. And it wasn’t introduced in this episode because obviously Stamets wasn’t introduced in this episode and the idea of Stamets being in charge of transportation was also not introduced here.
But Stamets, when we first meet him in this episode, literally uses the word “groovy,” and Culber is looking at him like he has two heads. That whole thing — he’s high on mushrooms, right? That’s the ha ha, he’s high on mushrooms. And that’s the Caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland, who sits atop a mushroom and smokes, and is very groovy in his own way. But the Caterpillar’s whole purpose in the story is to explain to Alice how Wonderland works, how she can grow big or small, and how she can control it instead of just picking up a little glass that says drink me and drinking it.
Liz: The Caterpillar helps her have agency.
Anika: Exactly. The Caterpillar helps her have agency and is her guide through how to understand what Wonderland is. And he’s also the one who asks her, who are you? And that is the question she’s answering for the whole rest of the book. So while only in a small scene, the Caterpillar is very important to the Alice in Wonderland story.
And certainly Stamets is obviously the Mushroom King, so this is definitely the character he maps on to. And I think in this episode, again, he is the one who runs up to Michael and says, you need to help me. And he asks her for a secret that only she would know to make her trust him in the next version. And she trusts him and gives it to him, right? So that whole part of it really feels like the “who are you?” moment — thank you to me. He’s saying, don’t tell me that you’re a girl or that you’re this or that, something obvious — tell me what your actual core self is. And her secret that she’s never been in love is just the saddest.
Liz: I mean, it’s heartbreaking.
Anika: It’s very teen drama, going back to our earlier conversation, but it is so sad.
Liz: And so fitting for her because of course she hasn’t. She has always been really reluctant to open up to people. And much like Caleb in Starfleet Academy, I do think Ash is her first romantic experience.
Anika: And I think she’s different because she’s not Vulcan, right? So she doesn’t get married off when she’s seven.
Liz: Yeah. Which in some ways is good.
Anika: But you know what I mean? She’s raised in a culture where you just have a match and that’s how it works. Right. And even if they don’t give you one, the idea is that you will find it — there’s this destiny thing. But because she’s human, they’re like, there’s no soulmate for you on Vulcan. You’re just going to be alone your whole life, Michael. Get used to it.
Liz: Presumably, most of her peers growing up would have been betrothed to someone. So there’s less opportunity for casual dating and all of that. And then on the Shenzhou, she says she didn’t go to parties because she was the first officer. I think Michael reads as very demisexual, and she’s not going to be having casual encounters on shore leave or something.
Anika: Right. So it makes perfect sense. But I also like it because it means that in this episode, she is feeling vulnerable and having feelings she doesn’t necessarily understand or recognise, and love is on her mind. So that’s what she chooses. So I think there are layers to that choice that I just really like. And I think it is because he’s saying, tell me something about yourself that only you would know — that is the same question the Caterpillar is giving to Alice.
Liz: And it’s also something she’s obviously self-conscious of. When Tilly asks what her previous boyfriends were like — which, way to be heteronormative, Tilly — she deflects. Very much like Caleb, when Tarima asks what his first time was like, and he’s like, oh, you know, normal human stuff, just saying.
Anika: Yes. But I do love also that Stamets brings in Michael, and Ash is sort of already a part of it, because he was who Michael was with when all of this was happening. So he’s almost brought in by the situation.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But she brings Tilly in too, because Michael needs Tilly. It’s like Stamets sees Michael, and Michael needs Tilly.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Everyone has someone that they trust.
Anika: And Saru — he doesn’t do much in this episode, so he can’t be annoying, which is good.
Liz: I was going to say, this is a good episode for him.
Anika: He has good moments. I really like his whole pushing back about the Gormagander, especially considering he didn’t care about the tardigrade. So it’s kind of funny because if there are rules, Saru is very beholden to rules, which is true to his character. So that’s fun.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But he cares about Michael. He’s protective of Michael in this episode.
Liz: Yeah. And I think that’s why I have such good feelings towards him in this episode — because he’s no longer being a jerk. And when Michael is not on the bridge, he’s the one who fulfils the part of the time loop where the Gormagander is brought on board, because this time they’re working in the same ethical framework. I just think we needed more of this a bit sooner for Saru.
Anika: Yeah. I guess we’re supposed to understand or infer that they’ve reached the turning point and they’re on the way up now and they’re going to become friends, which is more pleasurable to watch. So sure.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But yeah, I’m not sure. It doesn’t feel like it’s fully earned.
Liz: I feel like next week is going to complete that side of the story.
This episode also gives us our first line from Bryce. He doesn’t have a name yet, but he’s there. He’s on the bridge. He’s addressed as random communications man.
Anika: Of course. Random communications man. Silly me.
Liz: Yeah. His name is R.A. Bryce. Put some respect on it, Mr. Mudd.
Anika: Yeah. The bridge crew exists. And the background — there’s a bunch of people at the party who are on the bridge and in the background.
Liz: There are a lot of extras in this episode.
Anika: It was fun to see that.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: It’s fun. I like them.
Liz: I am quite certain that we see Nilsson — that is to say, Sara Mitich, without her Airiam makeup — briefly at the party.
Anika: Yes. You mentioned it, and so I was looking for her, and she is definitely there. It was right before the dancing background lesbians.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: So that’s when it happens. Sometimes I was like, oh.
Liz: I wonder if she was already struggling with the Airiam makeup, but they wanted to keep her around and give her opportunities to work without it, because she does seem to be a load-bearing part of the wider ensemble.
Anika: And as a background player to the background lesbians, I don’t have a problem with her.
Liz: Your favourite Nilsson representation is barely there.
Anika: That’s right. Exactly. Poor Nilsson.
Liz: I’ve got my Detmer thing, you’ve got your Nilsson thing. Sometimes we’re just allowed to have a one-sided feud with a background character played by a totally blameless performer.
Anika: Exactly. No offence to anyone involved in creating her. Okay. Is it time for shipping news?
Liz: Yeah, I feel—
Anika: There’s a lot of shipping.
Liz: Yeah. I think because this episode doesn’t have a lot of plot, really — it’s the same beats repeated iteratively.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: Shipping news.
Anika: Right.
Liz: Ash and Michael.
Anika: I’ve said everything I have to say about this. So yes, Ash and Michael are adorable, and everyone ships it. So it’s great. In the very beginning, when Ash and Michael are going to the bridge, and they meet up with Stamets and Culber, and they’re chatting, and they’re nosy about what’s happening, right? Culber has some amazing expressions. This is really towards the beginning of the episode. You could watch the first eight minutes or so and you would see it. Or even just look at the screencaps of Wilson Cruz’s amazing non-verbal acting at the beginning of this episode.
Liz: One thing I’ve always heard about Wilson Cruz is that he’s a great screen partner. And I think it’s partly because he’s so good at bringing that small thing without being a scene hog. He’s not hogging the spotlight or anything. He’s just very present.
Anika: What’s so good about it is that he is making these faces, and because he’s making these faces, you’re looking at Michael. He’s actually directing your attention away from him and towards her. And it’s just really good.
Liz: Yeah. It’s generous acting.
Anika: And then we get some Culber and Stamets background.
Liz: I just want to flag, Hugh refers to Paul as his partner, not his husband, so they’re not married yet. And I do feel cheated that we did not get an on-screen marriage.
Anika: Yeah. I mean, their relationship is really weirdly handled. And I think it’s partly because of everything that happens next. But it is to me — they were going, we’re going to do this cool arc about death and rebirth or whatever. And so in order for that to work, they have to already be a fully formed relationship. Because you can’t get to the point where — I mean, we could, but — they believe that you can’t get to the point where we are upset about Culber’s death by episode ten or whatever, if we didn’t speed run through some of their relationship.
So I see why the choices were made, but I would have preferred more build up. I mean, just skip the death entirely, obviously. And then when he comes back, we also just sort of skip over everything. They have a lot of drama and they never actually say they’re breaking up at any point.
Liz: It’s just like they went through a rough patch when Paul came back from the dead — which, fair, whomst among us, et cetera.
Anika: Yeah, it’s really like — Hugh comes back and he’s different and he has to go through that whole thing. But we don’t get to watch how it changes the relationship. It’s just like, it changed our relationship, I have to deal with my stuff, and now that I’ve dealt with my stuff, our relationship is fine. I don’t think that’s how that works.
Liz: Also, we’ve adopted two kids now.
Anika: But okay. And again, we’re going to have this whole thing — we’re estranged because we’re fighting over this, but then we save the universe and we come back together and it’s fine. While we were apart, we figured out that we missed each other so much that we’re just going to never let it happen again — skipping over all of the actual relationship building. Every single opportunity for relationship building, we are literally skipping over. And yet we’re supposed to be super invested in this relationship.
Liz: And the thing is, I’ve excused it in the past by pointing out that Star Trek in general is very bad at relationship building, but then it’s doing such a good job with Michael and Ash. So it’s really a matter of priorities. And I guess after Season 1, Discovery had shorter seasons, so there was less opportunity to get into it. But yeah, I feel like the priorities could have been different.
Anika: It feels like they were like, we made a gay relationship, and now we’re not going to invest anything into it — gold star for us for creating this. We’re going to put zero effort into that relationship and just have it happen over there and it’s fine. It really feels like an afterthought of, yeah, they’re still together too, whatever, it’s fine. They’re apart when we want drama, and they’re together when we don’t want drama, and nothing matters either way.
Liz: Yeah, it’s rough.
Anika: But they’re very cute in this episode. Culber is barely in it, but Stamets is very sweet. He dances with Michael, which is also very sweet. I really love the dancing. And he tells her — show don’t tell, but whatever — he tells her how they got together and the early parts of the relationship and how it’s changed him, and it’s very sweet. All very sweet. Yay.
Liz: I like the conceit that Wilson Cruz, who has a beautiful voice — he’s a musical theater guy — annoys Stamets. That’s just a bit of silliness that I enjoyed.
Anika: Yes. All right. Next up is Tilly and Soldier slash Musician, because she says that she had a Soldier thing, but then she was going through a Musician phase, but then she sees Ash and she’s like, oh, my Soldier thing is back. And that’s all very cute. I love all of that.
But the reason I included it in the list is because you remember when I said I had written one Stamets and Culber fic, where they were the only relationship in it, but they were just helping Tilly get a date — decide who she was going to date?
Liz: I do remember that.
Anika: Yes. So at the time I was saying I think she ended up with Landry because she had a Soldier thing. I went back and read it. I looked up my fic. It is even more ridiculous than Landry. Are you ready?
Liz: I am so ready.
Anika: In this fic, Tilly is deciding between a Soldier and a Musician, and they are the twin children of Gabriel Lorca and Katrina Cornwell.
Liz: Okay. So the thing is, I knew that this was coming because I read that fic and I really liked it.
Anika: I can’t believe I wrote it. I am proud of it. But it was also like — I can’t believe that I A, wrote this and then B, forgot.
Liz: Sometimes when you’re in the throes of a brand new OTP, you write some fic that maybe later you think is a bit silly, but it was true to how you felt at the time.
Anika: Yeah. But it was cute because they each chose one side. Paul thinks she can date them both, and Culber was like, no, you cannot.
Liz: Wow. That’s so judgmental. The other big pairing out of this episode is Mudd/Lorca, and only I and Fran ship it, but it’s a good ship and more people should read Fran’s fic because it’s very funny.
Anika: Yeah. Mudd/Lorca is absolutely in this episode. Oh, yeah. It is there. Yes, it is there.
I put Lorca and Michael because he’s just so possessive of her. It’s another thing where it’s super obvious on the rewatch. Because in every single episode, I was sitting there going, oh, they’re relationship building, Michael and Lorca, and they’re going to be a thing eventually. That’s what I thought was happening. No, that is not what was happening. The whole time, it was Lorca thinking that he was entitled to a relationship with Michael. Yeah.
Liz: But I did ship it. I was like, this is going to be messed up and terrible and I’m really into it.
Anika: Right. I was ready for it. I thought that the Ash stuff was going to be her easy relationship.
Liz: Love a starter boyfriend.
Anika: I was going to set her up for the twisted romance with Lorca.
Liz: I did not think we were meant to be shipping Michael and Lorca. I remember there was a lot of, oh no, you shouldn’t ship it because the show doesn’t want you to ship it. And I was like, I don’t know, I really feel like there’s something there, but okay. I’m getting really mixed signals from both of them, and it was really fun. I never expected it to be canon, and it’s not really canon except in Lorca’s head, but I wasn’t hallucinating. I wasn’t making it up.
Anika: Definitely canon in Lorca’s head. Yeah. I thought that Lorca has a thing for Michael and Michael is not in a place to have a thing for Lorca. So if they ever actually got together, it would be in season five or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what I thought was happening.
Liz: It would be the out-of-nowhere season seven romance that everyone but me hates.
Anika: So yeah. But I definitely thought that, and she’s right that it’s not completely one-sided. It’s definitely all in Lorca’s head, but it’s also that he’s the first person that Michael trusts. You know?
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Yeah. And she has these feelings of, he gave me a second chance, he sees me as more than my mistakes. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And that’s very attractive. And not for nothing, I can imagine her having an authority kink because she was raised by Sarek.
Liz: I was just going to finish the sentence the same way. Yeah. And it’s that thing where we were interested in shipping Georgiou and Michael before it became explicitly maternal. The thing about Lorca is at no point is he giving parental vibes.
Anika: No. For any of them.
Liz: No. No. I just want to say fashion-wise, I love Tilly’s party outfit. It is so 2017 with the clunky heels and the visible zip, but I love it. And I also think that Stella’s outfit is very 2017, but also so cute — the colours sort of pre-figuring the 60s — and it’s just great costume design. I think maybe I would watch a Stella series purely because I love the costume.
Anika: Right. I love her whole look, her cute little hair. She was on Wynonna Earp — I don’t even know the actress’s name. I don’t even know the character’s name. I just know she was on Wynonna Earp. She was Wynonna Earp’s little sister.
Liz: Oh, I can see the resemblance to Melanie Scrofano.
Anika: Yes, exactly. I just remember being into it — being that actress and imagining the modern AU version, smooshing them together in my mind the way I do with all characters played by the same actor. Also, I haven’t seen Hacks. I have no opinion.
Liz: I mean, Hacks is a comedy, and I actually feel like you would actively dislike it. But I forgot what Stella looked like in this episode. I could only remember her costume, and my brain just inserted Megan Stalter.
Anika: Yeah. Her costume is adorable. Her hair is adorable and I just —
Liz: I do need fic now where just as Mudd is a nemesis to some Starfleet captains, Captain Batel’s nemesis is Stella Mudd, and it’s just weird and unhinged and a little bit gay.
Anika: Yeah. I am not opposed to that, now that they’re both in Star Trek. I am super into — okay, let’s make that all a thing.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: I think that’s us. What a nice short episode. This is what happens when you don’t have Katrina Cornwell. Should we discuss the break we’re taking?
Anika: Yes.
Liz: Okay. We talked about it this week and we can either run through all of Discovery and then go straight into Strange New Worlds, or we can take a longer break than usual, do season four of Strange New Worlds, and then pick up the second half of Discovery season one. We’ve decided to do that because this is the busiest time of year for Anika and she is so busy. It’s a whole thing.
Anika: So busy, you guys.
Liz: So busy. I’m going to get some writing done and also try to catch up on the transcripts. We’re doing two more episodes, then we’re taking a break and we’ll be back in July with Strange New Worlds Season 4, and then we’re going to cleanse our palettes by finishing off Season 1 of Disco. So yeah, that’s our plan.
Anika: It’s something to look forward to.
Liz: Yeah. Whatever Season 4 brings us, we will still have some Mirror Universe stuff going on, and Lorca with a broken nose and some blood and a leather jacket, which I’m going to be very normal about.
Anika: You mean so normal.
Liz: So normal. That’s our watchword for this run of episodes. So normal.
Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at antimatterpod.com including links to our social media, credits for our theme music and transcripts of our episodes. You can follow us on Facebook, Tumblr, TikTok, Instagram, and Blue Sky, all at antimatterpod, and on Mastodon at antimatterpod@tenforward.social.
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