Anika and Liz are thrown into a Klingon prison, where they are absolutely choosing Lorca’s pain. But no one is having a worse day than that poor innocent tardigrade!
We’re discussing episode five of Star Trek: Discovery‘s first season, including:
- This is the worst Saru episode of the entire series. It’s rough, man
- Overthinking the “five best captains” list
- For an awful moment, we start to ask dangerous questions like “how many starships does Starfleet have?”
- This episode is a card trick: your attention is on Harry Mudd, but really it’s introducing Ash Tyler
- Liz has normal and rational feelings about the historical Buran
- We play a fun game called “which other captains would leave Mudd in the Klingon prison” (Archer)
- Introducing Ash means we have to talk about Ash, L’Rell and the misguided sexual assault subplot
- Antimatter Pod: We aren’t really into m/m ships
Also Antimatter Pod: We will die for Lorca/Tyler - Our hot take: Saru did NOT deserve that telescope, this is NOT a sweet scene to be immortalised as a Hallmark ornament, this is REWARDING his BAD BEHAVIOUR
Transcript
(Please note this transcript was generated automatically by Apple Podcasts, and though it was edited by a human, some errors may remain.)
Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. Today, we’re discussing Star Trek: Discovery, Season One, Episode Five, “Choose Your Pain”.
Liz: AKA, the one where Discovery started to make sense to us.
Anika: Hehehe, yes. I think that that’s exactly right.
Anika: It was like, oh, okay, this is what we’re doing. We were wrong!
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: But it also finally made sense.
Liz: It’s also half of a good episode, maybe two-thirds of a good episode because the Michael stuff is great. The Lorca stuff is great. Saru is honestly at his worst in this episode and it’s all uphill. It’s all improvement from here.
Anika: Yeah. Right. Like, I think because we have the scene at the end with Saru, it was like, okay, all of that stuff was leading up to this. And we were supposed to get there and he’s supposed to be terrible. I don’t know. I still think it was a missed… They were trying something and it didn’t work out quite how I think they wanted it to.
Liz: I think it’s actually quite ironic that it’s Pike who teaches Saru how to be a good leader, when Saru is so Pike-tastic in this episode.
Anika: Interesting. I mean, Saru is just… It’s maybe unfair because we get to see him in private, you know?
Liz: Yes.
Anika: We get to see him work things out in his head with the help of ChatGPT. And that is not flattering. And it wouldn’t be flattering to anyone. And so they’re telling a story and they’re doing well at telling that story. It’s just, by the time we get to the end, Michael’s like, no, you were a great captain today. And I thought: really though?
Liz: Really? When was he a good captain, Michael? When did that happen? Footage not found.
Anika: He figured out that Lorca had stolen the ship at the end, but you don’t have to be captain to do that. That wasn’t a good captain moment.That was good deductive reasoning. And I think he’s the science officer. So, yay.
Liz: Congratulations. You’ve done your job adequately.
I guess also the lesson that Saru learns is that he can’t be a captain the way Lorca is a captain, which is a very good lesson. And then he has to be his own type of leader. He can’t just look at a list of great captains and emulate them. And that’s good. But because he’s so dismissive to Michael and because animal cruelty is involved, it’s hard to be forgiving.
Anika: Yes. Right. It’s rough all the way around.
Liz: Yeah. I will come to like Saru, but honestly, my favorite thing that he does in the whole series is step down as first officer so that Rayner can take his job. Saru is a better ambassador than Starfleet officer.
Anika: Oh, absolutely. And I’m sorry that we didn’t get more of that. He’s not built for that, literally. His whole thing is not good for the stresses of the job.
Liz: And I don’t want to get into biological determinism because we see other Kelpiens in Starfleet in the 32nd century. And he’s not incapable, but his own personality gets in the way. The specifics of his Saru-ness, yeah.
Anika: And I think that it’s entirely because he was the first Kelpien that we meet, but he is written that he believes in biological determinism. Like, one of the lessons he learns in this episode is that he is angry at Michael and not scared of her, and he depends on his threat ganglia a little too much. And has to move away from that, and again, it’s because this was a new type of alien that they were playing around with, and so they didn’t know everything about it either, or how they were going to use it.
So I can understand that some of the clunkiness is entirely due to the writing and world building, but he is different from – and he is supposed to be different from all the other Kelpians we see. So I don’t know. Saru is a very interesting character. I think that there’s a lot going on there that we can really look at from many different perspectives. I just don’t like him personally.
Liz: Yeah, certainly in these early episodes – by season two, and I’ve already said this, but by mid-season two, when he’s lost his ganglia and developed a lot more confidence – there’s that biological determinism again – he is more interesting and enjoyable.
I agree that they’re figuring out how to write this type of alien. Spock was the first Vulcan we saw and he is totally an outlier. But it’s also just the writing choices from the very first episode where he’s always shutting down ideas, and then Michael is shutting down his ideas, and there’s just a relentless negativity that never changes.
Saru on Discovery doesn’t seem substantially different from Saru on the Shenzhou, and I think maybe it would have been better if he had been more optimistic and open-hearted and curious before losing Georgiou.
Anika: Ooh, yes. Yes.
Liz: But also, this episode opens with a very important scene for you and I, because it was your Tumblr posts about this scene specifically that made me go, oh, this Pixiedane person is really cool and I should actually follow her. I hope one day we can be friends.
Anika: Yay! I mean, I got so excited when the episode started and we were here. I still haven’t written the fic that I always want to write, which is that opening scene with the war council from the point of view of every other character. Kat and Lorca are just sniping at each other and no one else speaks. We get one reaction shot from the Vulcan and that’s it. Everybody else is just sort of twiddling their thumbs, wishing they were not in that room. Because it feels a little too personal, a little like we’ve been invited into the kitchen of an old married couple and we don’t want to be here. It’s great.
Liz: It’s so good. There are so many layers, and I think Lorca as a character comes to life because he’s not just interacting with people or a person who has authority over him, but someone who is his peer, she’s close to him in age, someone he has to answer to. We start to see that the dynamic here is an inversion of the classic Star Trek reasonable captain, crazy admiral situation, and it’s a reasonable or admiral loose canon captain. We’re doing something new. We’re playing with Star Trek tropes.
Also just, this lady is interesting and I want to see more of her. It’s sad because I realized on this watch that in 30 seconds, she is more of a character than Landry got to be. Even though she is also having these heavily subtextual interactions with Lorca, and we don’t really learn anything about her as a person.
Anika: Right. I mean, you and I were very good at filling in those blanks, and just making up an entire rich backstory and personality traits based on those interactions. I didn’t have the interest in Landry until she was dead, and then I was like, wow, she was a nothing-ness. And then I started having more, I only cared about her when she was dead. And I felt like I had been tricked into having to care about her because she didn’t matter at all, but now she was dead. That’s a contrary Anika personality trait, where I was just like, wait a minute, you can’t just kill her off. Now I can’t care about her.
Liz: I think with a lot of the regulars, I sort of held off getting too attached because I felt like the show itself was going to tell their story. Like, I never jumped in to write Michael Burnham fan fiction, because the Michael Burnham story is happening right in front of me.
And I felt like Landry … I love this actress. I think she has a really interesting vibe with Lorca, but we’re gonna get to know her. So I’m not gonna think about her too much. I’m just gonna wait for that to unspool. Whereas with Admiral Cornwell, in this scene, I’m like, there is a lot happening and I hope she comes back to keep exploring that. But also if Admiral Cornwell had never come back after this episode, I would have been like, oh yeah, that’s cool. That’s cool. I enjoyed her. But it wouldn’t feel like a great missed opportunity the way Landry does.
Anika: Yes, I think that’s, you’re right. That’s what it is. Because Landry was introduced as part of the crew and did have some connection to people. And yeah, it was just weird.
The admirals are always satellites. They’re not part of the main cast.
Liz: Right, right. I would love to have an Upper Decks episode where we just follow the Admiralty.Only Strange New Worlds can give that to me.And I don’t want to see what Strange New Worlds does with it because it would just be the admirals talking about how great Pike is.
And the other thing is, the original plan when this was filmed was that Kat was going to die at the end of the next episode. They were going to Landry her. And it’s only because Jayne Brook knew the producers and they liked her and they liked what she was doing, that they were like, oh, we should actually keep Cornwell around. We can still get stories out of her. I feel like if Rekha Sharma had that friendship with the showrunners, Landry might not have died. It’s connections and who you know, and I think there is an element of white privilege here. But yeah, it’s interesting to contrast Cornwell and Landry. Maybe I should ship them.
Anika: Okay. I will look forward to that.
We follow their squabbling in public scene with their squabbling in private. And that was the scene where I was like, Oh, they’re a thing. That fully happened. I am not making something up. This is barely subtext. It is happening. Like, their entire vibe is so … friends that have known each other intimately.
Liz: Yes, yes.
Anika: In every way that means.
Liz: You had a Tumblr post that was like, they are clearly exes. They clearly used to be married.
Anika: It was four images.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: It was Michael and Tilly: girlfriends, Culber and Stamets: boyfriends. Lorca and Cornwell: exes, and then Lorca and Ash: future exes.
Liz: And look, no argument here.
Anika: That was on screen.
Anika: Sorry. That was all there.
Liz: They sit next to each other and there’s this physical push and pull. She leans in, he leans away, he leans towards her, she leans back, and she literally straight up says, I’m your friend. And you don’t say that to your friend unless there’s something else going on. I’m sorry. That is not dialogue people say in real life.
Anika: When he says, I don’t like doctors, and she’s like, am I supposed to take that personally?
Liz: Yes!
Anika: And again, that’s just not normal unless there’s a reason for there to be some reason that he was mad at her, and took it out on all doctors, on all people like her.
Liz: And the thing is, we don’t yet know that she used to be a psychiatrist. So there’s the same sense you got with the L’Rell and Voq scenes an episode earlier.
Anika: Right.
Liz: Where it’s like, oh, the writers know more than they’re telling us. They’re not just info dumping. They know what they’re doing. And that was kind of when I settled in and went, okay, we’ve gotten through some rough episodes, but I’m ready for the ride.
Anika: So Starfleet is deep in the war at this point, and Discovery is giving them some wins. And so, of course, they now want to make every starship in Starfleet the same as Discovery, and get those Spore Drives installed, and find a whole army of Tardigrades to run them down. And, you know, it’s very single-minded of them.
Liz: They’re trying to put all of their eggs in one Spore Drive basket, and we know that’s not going to work out, but it feels doomed from the start. Because we’re watching this as a prequel, and we know that Starfleet does not have an army of Spore Drive ships 10 or 100 years from now.
Anika: Yes, and it’s clearly a metaphor or an analogy for weapons of mass destruction, that it never turns out to be exactly how you wanted it to be.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Then Michael’s entire subplot is basically, oops, we’re hurting this animal. My bad.
Liz: That’s on me, guys.
Anika: In Starfleet’s defense, no one in the Admiralty or even Captain Lorca knew that they were hurting the tardigrade. Not that he would care. Who knows about the Admiralty? How much they would care. It’s not even the first time that hurting other potentially sentient life forms in pursuit of the greater good of Starfleet. That comes up in every series and they usually choose the let’s hurt that animal side.
Liz: That’s “The Devil In The Dark” and all of that. The problem is that Starfleet has to be told over and over again not to hurt this animal until we hit season four of Discovery, where we’re the animal being hurt and we’re like, hey, that’s not nice. Don’t do that.
Anika: But in “Equinox” where they’re hurting energy beings in there and they’re always hurting artificial light forms, like that’s a constant. So I’m just saying it’s not necessarily new. I do think that it would give them pause, but I’m not sure they wouldn’t be Saru and choose to just do it anyway.
Liz: I like to think they wouldn’t, but the analogy that I keep coming back to is of the war horse and we don’t ride horses into battle anymore because it’s not cool and it’s not good for the horse, but mostly because technology has outpaced the horse. But you think about the use of horses in the First World War, and no one likes taking these beautiful animals into a violent situation where they would be horribly stressed and killed and maimed, but they did.
Anika: Right. Exactly.
Liz: So that’s like the briefing, we’re going to make more spore drives, but their private interaction is more personal, and she’s going, are you okay? And also giving us an idea of Starfleet’s perception of Michael being on Discovery.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: And she is the first person to suggest, even indirectly, that Michael is not actually considered responsible for the war, that she is a scapegoat, but that’s not necessarily reality, which I think is important, and a lot of people miss it.
Anika: Yes, it is super important. Yeah, I think that it tells us something about Katrina, but it’s also, I think you’re right that we can universalize that a little to be like, there are discussions between various brass people who are like, we needed to pin this on someone, but they don’t necessarily hold her fully responsible.
Liz: And I think it’s also like, the average Starfleet officer who wasn’t there is going by the reports and the rumors. Like in the second season premiere, there’s the guy from the Enterprise who is really hostile to Michael. And I kind of wanted to get more into that, this perception that she started the war and now she’s back and she has her rank again, and some people feel a way about that. I don’t want her to be eternally punished for it, but I kind of wanted to get more of the average Starfleet officer’s perspective.
Anika: I think that it’s interesting because, and I think that you’re right, that it’s sort of a blink and you’ll miss moment that lots of people missed.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Because I think it is important that Saru’s response to Michael is specific to Saru and is not everyone’s.
Anika: I mean, you can just say, Detmer and Saru are meaner to Michael than Tilly and Stamets, you know?
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Because they were on the ship for it, it makes sense. But I think that because she was the first mutineer, and it’s like this whole thing, like the comment that you shared with me from our TikTok today, that guy was all “the first mutineer.” And it’s like, that’s like a history book thing. That doesn’t mean anything. It’s not a meaningful thing to say about Michael. Like, no, what are you doing?
Liz: I’m also going to point out that Kat, who chooses her words very carefully, says Starfleet’s first convicted mutineer. Because everyone else has been able to go, oh yeah, but I had a really good reason. You know, I’m mutineer, but it worked out okay, so it’s all fine. And that’s not the case with Michael, but she’s absolutely not the first mutineer as such. She’s the first to face consequences for it.
And the other thing we see in this scene is that Lorca knows his regulations, he’s quoting chapter and verse back to Kat. And that’s kind of a glimpse of the real Lorca, that he might bend or break the rules, but he knows them back to front. He doesn’t do anything that he can’t justify.
Anika: Right. He’s the one who can wiggle out of mutiny, because he can bark back regulations that will cover him. He’s memorized the rule book.
Liz: And truthfully, I think Michael could have probably tried to talk her way out of charges if she had been in a position emotionally to do so. But like you said, when we were talking about the premiere, she feels guilty, so she pleads guilty. I don’t think that’s a good way to run a justice system. I think some people do terrible things and then don’t feel guilty. But it’s a more nuanced situation than a lot of people appreciate.
Anika: Right.
Liz: And then Lorca’s shuttling back to Discovery, and he gets captured, and oh, noes.He’s taken away, and his little eye doodad is left sad and alone on the shuttle floor, and it’s like, what is this foreshadowing?
Anika: It was very, the fact that the screen focuses on his little eye doodad is really hilarious. It’s so that they can torture him later, but it’s just, you know, because when you get that treatment, it’s usually like, you know, a locket or his weapon or, you know, something that is meaningful or is that is going to come. And I guess it does come back into the storyline later on, but not in a meaningful way. Like, you didn’t need to focus on the eye thing for us to remember, 15 minutes ago, he was complaining about his eyes. We don’t need that It’s a little heavy-handed.
Liz: I actually think the whole thing with reestablishing the audience, that he has these sensitive eyes, is a little heavy-handed, and I’m not mad about it. I enjoy watching Lorca suffer, so, you know, that’s great. But it is, as you say, a little heavy-handed.
And then, the scene at the end where he’s saying that we all choose our pain and I chose mine, I kind of wonder if he’s not … not faking the eye sensitivity, but he’s over-egging the pudding a little. He’s bunging it on, as my dad would say.
Because if you’re the captain of this super starship that’s at every battle and you put it about that you have a very well-known vulnerability that is unusual to people, then anyone who captures you is going to take advantage of that vulnerability. So, what if it’s not something that’s actually that terrible for you? Like, what if it’s inconvenient and uncomfortable, but not traumatic? “Oh no, oh no, please don’t torture me by bringing me red wine and chocolate.”
Anika: I like this, because then, as you say, like L’Rell can torture him this way, but it doesn’t actually severely hinder him so that he can then escape.
Liz: Yeah, he’s still able to see well enough to shoot and all of that.
Anika: That’s clever. I like it.
Liz: I also think that it kind of explains why we see all the Mirror Universe people have greater sensitivity to light, but it doesn’t really affect them as badly as it affected Lorca. And it definitely didn’t affect Georgiou. I fully believe Georgiou had been in our Universe for an hour. And then she was like, well, I’m not going home, time to get my eyes fixed. But it’s just, it’s not a factor going forward. And I think this is why it’s not that Lorca was totally bunging it on.
Anika: I love that. I love that headcanon. I fully believe it.
Okay. So Lorca’s captured. Do we want to discuss Lorca’s plot or Saru’s plot first?
Liz: Let’s do Saru’s plot first, because then we can talk about the Lorca stuff, which is a lot more enjoyable.
Anika: Yes, I agree.
Liz: I already said this, genuinely the worst Saru episode of all five seasons of Discovery.
Anika: Yes. I made fun of it when it happened, and I knew going into this episode, I think I even mentioned it in a previous episode where he literally calls up ChatGPT, asks for the best captains, and then asks, what do they have in common? And then says, stick my whole entire record into your algorithm and tell me how it is. And hilariously, it takes the entire episode, and then he decides not to listen to it. So that’s not realistic, but I enjoy it.
But so what I have to say about Saru, ChatGPT and captaining, and I understand that he feels like he missed out on mentoring because he would have had Georgiou and he got Lorca. Bad news, not a good swap there, don’t like this.
Liz: Fair.
Anika: Which, yes, correct. But also it’s just, is this the first time he, I guess it’s the first time he’s in command in a crisis?
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Can you imagine that’s what’s going on here?And he legitimately immediately asked the computer for help. And the computer, in perhaps the most realistic use of the Starfleet computer as ChatGPT, literally tells him to murder Michael. It’s great.
Liz: I know.
Anika: I really enjoyed that part. That was so true, so real.
Liz: I’m looking at all of the senior officers in the original series who went bananas and started killing people. And I’m like, how many just had ChatGPT psychosis?
Anika: I think they just got too close to their computer because you get to a certain rank and you can’t talk to people anymore. You know, they’re not your peers anymore. They’re people who are under you. And so you can no longer…
Liz: We call this the Janeway Conundrum.
Anika: And so you get stuck. And I mean, the Janeway is even worse off because the only medical officer on her ship is also ChatGPT. So she’s really screwed.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And, you know, obviously Starfleet computers are more sophisticated. The Doctor is significantly more sophisticated. I am being facetious. Don’t @ me, Star Trek fans. But legitimately, I laughed so hard when I realized that Michael was in the crosshairs of the computer.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: That was really well done.
Liz: It was maybe unintentionally funny, but I did laugh. And this is not a very funny episode, so I appreciated that moment.
Anika: Exactly. It was definitely unintentional. I also don’t think that they were thinking, oh, well, if you ask an LLM for help, they are going to be kind of nervous.
Liz: No, this was 2017.
Anika: Yeah. Of course not. However, that’s how it worked out.
Liz: Basically, Zora was a huge upgrade.
Anika: Yes.
Anika: This brings me to the question, who is third in command and is now first officer?
Liz: It should be Airiam.
Anika: Do you have any idea?
Liz: No, it’s definitely Airiam because we’ve seen her—
Anika: She doesn’t act like it.
Liz: No.
Anika: Like, at all.
Liz: I think this is because Saru is trying to captain like Lorca. Lorca doesn’t take Saru into his confidence, so why would Saru take Airiam into his confidence?
Anika: I guess that’s true.
Anika: But he does ask – Lorca is not on the list.Georgiou definitely took not only Michael, but also Saru into her confidence. We saw that on screen. Even if Saru has no experience with April, Decker or Pike, he still has at least that. And also, they say bravery and self-sacrifice, but I feel like compassion is also one of the things that is said. At no point is it, like, secrecy or you have to do everything on your own. Self-sufficiency is not one of the five tenets of captaincy.
Liz: I think it’s very funny that Jonathan Archer is in the top five because have you seen that guy? It’s the best.
Anika: It’s the best. It’s so funny to me. I’m just like, look.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I know that they wanted all of the names to be familiar, even though it would have been way better – there should have been someone we didn’t know, but you know, whatever. It’s fine. You do you.
Liz: And then in 20 years, we could get a Star Trek about that guy.
Anika: But Archer is such a hilarious … I would have rathered they throw in Mayweather or something. Someone that we know, but we didn’t see as captain, you know? I think that would have been more of a thing.
Liz: Yeah. Captain Hoshi Sato.
Anika: That would have been great. But no, we get Archer. I’m sorry. And again, I say this as someone who loves Archer. But I think that, you know how you said that Saru is a better ambassador? Archer ends up ambassador too. And I can believe that. I feel like that’s much more believable.
Liz: Oh, yeah.
Anika: Than his captaining. President of the Federation. Yes, you can do that, Archer. That’s the type of person you are.
Liz: Any leadership situation where he’s isolated, much like Saru, is a bad one. And I do think that Saru’s problem is that this whole episode, it is his first time in command in a crisis, and he’s basically spending the whole episode in a panic.He rejects Michael’s information about the Tardigrade out of hand because it’s coming from Michael. And after that, he can’t walk that back. He can’t change his mind. And he’s just not taking a moment to step back and think properly about what he’s doing.
Anika: Right. He’s just reacting. And again, there’s part at the beginning of the episode, right before she comes on to the bridge, his threat ganglia go off. And he takes that so to heart that Michael is the problem. And it’s like, no, Saru, you are afraid of the Klingons that have your captain and are now looking for you. This is not hard to figure out.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But he is so focused on Michael.
Liz: Saru is very, are men to emotional to be in command? That’s him.
Anika: But just before we move off of the list of decorated captains.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: April hasn’t really done anything too terrible yet. There’s one episode of the animated series, I think where he’s in command and I haven’t seen it and have nothing to say about it, therefore. As an admiral, he does seem to actually understand strategy. So that’s good.
Liz: On the other hand, he also trained Pike. So how good is he really?
Anika: I mean, I would assume that Pike, unlike Saru, Pike is more, I’m going to not emulate my captain. I’m going to pave my own way.
Liz: Yeah. April also trained Una, who is very good at her job, except when the plot requires her to be an idiot. So, yeah, exactly.
Anika: Exactly. So Archer, we’ve already discussed. Georgiou, I think we have explained. Georgiou is a good captain for exploration, which is Starfleet’s main goal. She is not a good captain.
Liz: No, not in war.
Anika: Not in war, not in battle. It’s just not her thing. And that’s okay.
Liz: And then Decker, we only see in one episode of the original series.
Anika: When he’s gone crazy.
Liz: When he’s gone crazy. And I know that I said earlier that everyone has AI psychosis in this generation, but actually I think there’s a whole generation of senior officers ahead of Kirk, who have this deep trauma from the Klingon War, that they have never dealt with. That’s why they’re all going off the rails.
My other Decker headcanon is that he and Lorca were like friends with benefits for many years on and off. And that was a whole thing.
Anika: Interesting.
Liz: Like low-key a major ship of mine. I’ve never actually written the fic, but I’ve written the fic where they’re in the background.
Anika: Amazing.
Liz: I also think that Lorca is not in the top five, but I would say he’s probably in the top 10. And my argument is that he is a good wartime captain, and Harry Mudd has heard of him.
Anika: Right. I mean, I guess, so this is one of those, does the news survive to the 23rd century? I think the news is very much in Picard, so I think that it’s settled that it did. But that’s really the only time I can think of that where we get to see reports and reporters telling what’s happening in Starfleet to non-Starfleet people. I guess Jake also is sort of on that beat.
Liz: It’s kind of like the Federation’s elections. We just assume that all of this democratic stuff is happening in the background somewhere.
Anika: Yeah, right. And that would be a story. It would be a story if an entire ship was lost, except for one guy.
Liz: And that guy was the captain.
Anika: That’s definitely something that would be told. And Harry Mudd would be into that story, so he would pay attention. It does make sense on that level. I don’t know. It’s like, how many captains are there even at this point? How many have there been? I’m curious.
Liz: Thousands.
Anika: Really? Of starships? Doesn’t that mean there’s thousands of starships? Which, it always seems like there’s 20 starships. I know that’s ridiculous and can’t be true, but it just always seems like there’s not a lot.
Liz: Just because it’s been seven months and Starfleet casualties are in the tens of thousands, and starships seem to have about…
Anika: So there has to be…
Liz: Yeah. Like, 100, 200 people per ship.
Anika: It’s not a lot of people.
Liz: I mean, the numbers are intentionally fuzzy because you don’t want to commit to anything, but yeah.
Anika: I mean, I know that, in recent seasons of recent series, we have had many starships pop in to help out and stuff, and we get to see how big Starfleet actually is. But it’s just funny to … how is it always only the Enterprise here if there’s so many ships?
Liz: No, I know. I know.
Anika: It doesn’t make sense. And then again, so how can it be that I know all these names, if there’s that many people? It just seems ridiculous to me.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I know again, that’s just a me and it’s a nitpick and I’m being ridic- I’m creating the ridiculousness, but it still bothers me.
Liz: I mean, it was very much an Easter egg for the fans and we’re probably overthinking it, but is Prime Lorca considered a good captain and is he considered one of the best is a question that I have grappled with for fan fiction reasons. And what I come back to is that he’s not the best of the best, but he’s considered, you know, top tier. He’s not being given a garbage scow. The fact that he destroyed his ship, killed his crew, survived, and was given another command tells me that despite everything, Starfleet regards him very highly.
Anika: Especially this particular ship.
Liz: Yes. And that can’t all be mirror Lorca’s manipulations. He’s building on what his alternate self has done.
Anika: Right.
Liz: So should we jump back to the Lorca side of the plot?
Anika: Yes. Because they come together. We can talk about when they come together, but yes, let’s go over to the Lorca side of the plot. He’s abducted and thrown into a holding cell with one Harcourt Fenton Mudd.
Liz: Yay! I really liked the sleight of hand in this episode where all the buildup was: we’re introducing Harry Mudd, a popular, question mark, legacy character played by a high profile guest star.
And also the last member of our regular cast. Don’t pay attention to that guy. You know, he’s just going to sit in the background for a while.
And literally Lorca is thrown into the room and there are three people in there. There’s Mudd, there’s the guy who is beaten to death almost right away. And way back in the corner is Ash Tyler.
Anika: Right.
Liz: Again, don’t pay attention to him. We’re doing a bit of a sleight of hand. This is a card trick.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: It’s really fitting to me that Mudd is in this season because this whole season is a confidence trick. Lorca is a con artist.
Anika: Yeah, you’re right.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I mean, okay, so we all know that I’m not a Harry Mudd fan.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: At all.
Liz: I know.
Anika: I’m just gonna keep saying it because anything I say about Mudd is going to be colored by the fact that I don’t like him.
Liz: That’s quite okay.
Anika: I’ve never liked him and nothing about new Mudd made me like him, but I love Ash Tyler.
Liz: I know. He’s so great.
Anika: I adore him. I was so happy to see him. All of my very warm feelings for doofus Ash Tyler just rushed back. And I was just like, oh, it’s my little puppy. And the Voq-ness of it all makes him even more of a puppy.Like, I know he’s supposed to be the enemy and everything, but I just adore him. I love Ash Tyler and I’m so sad that we’ll never see him again.
Liz: So am I, but also Shazad Latif’s career is thriving.He was in the new Wuthering Heights movie, and he appeared on screen and he’s playing like a weedy little guy. So weedy that he has a mustache but no beard, so you can appreciate the full power of his chinlessness. And I’m like, I love him. Why would you cheat on him with Jacob Elordi, who is objectively so much more attractive and yet he’s not my friend, Ash Tyler?
Anika: He’s not my friend, Ash Tyler. I love him so much. He’s such a bro this season.I just adore every moment of it. Every … he’s so ridiculous. He’s Archer but good. I love him so much. I know I just said he’s Archer but good about someone who is a murderer. But you know, there were circumstances, intervening circumstances.
Liz: Ash’s story is very complicated and not entirely well executed. But just as a character, I love him.
Anika: Yes, exactly.
Liz: He and L’Rell gave us a whole secret baby subplot. You can’t hate a guy like that. He’s so good.
Anika: He’s so good. He’s the best. He’s legitimately … I just love every single thing about him, and everyone should get ready for how much I’m going to make everything about Ash Tyler all the time. Just warning, warning, content warning to all.
But yeah, so he came on screen and he’s instantly ingratiating himself with Lorca to the point that Lorca is suspicious of it. He’s like, you’re a little bit too much my friend. And yet he’s able to play it off in such a way that even Lorca said, oh, okay.
Because he does keep testing him throughout. So Lorca doesn’t actually fully go all in on him, but he does trust him to the point where he’s like, I’m going to use this guy. Which for Lorca is pretty—
Liz: But that’s basically a marriage proposal, coming from Lorca.
Anika: You’re right. Exactly. Future exes, as I say.
Anika: But Ash, like, he’s just really good. And also, I have to point out. So this is, you know, when L’Rell brings Lorca into the torture chamber, and he complements her English. And she says, well, I’m a spy. So I have to, that’s a skill. I really love that little exchange is in this episode because Ash obviously also has a very good, he’s so good at knowing English that he can pull off being from Seattle. And he’s so good at being a spy that Lorca, if anything, thinks he’s been twisted by the Klingons. And he’s been like turned by the Klingons, not that he is at Klingon.
Liz: Yeah, he thinks Tyler’s a collaborator.
Anika: Right. But these are the kind of breadcrumbs, I feel like, that when you watch it, the second time or the third time, you’re like, oh, it was there all along. They are building the story to something. But as you say, there’s all this sleight of hand, so you don’t notice unless you’re looking for it.
Liz: I really enjoy Lorca’s entire interchange with L’Rell. She’s like, your ship has done all these cool things, and he’s like, oh, little old me. He’s flirting with her, and it’s fun to watch.
Anika: Yes. Absolutely. Because Lorca is smart. He might be super evil, but he’s very intelligent, and he knows how to play people. He’s a spy too.
Liz: Because I remember we were saying, if Lorca is from the Mirror Universe, then Ash can’t be a Klingon, and vice versa, because they’re not going to do this twice. Oh no, they did this twice.
Anika: Exactly.
Liz: It was so great.
Anika: It’s so good.
Liz: I also feel like, in Lorca’s interactions with L’Rell, he is giving a good impression of how Prime Lorca would behave in that situation. He is maintaining his cover as a guy from the Mirror Universe. And so, yeah, this is who Lorca is in every reality.
Anika: So yeah, I want to say something about that.
Liz: With the bravado and the flirtation and yeah.
Anika: Now that you’ve brought it up, because I think that people have this idea that the Mirror Universe is supposed to be opposites, right?
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Like, if you’re one way in the Prime Universe, you’re the opposite way in the Mirror Universe. And I don’t think that was ever actually true. But I think specifically with Lorca and Prime Lorca, he wouldn’t be able to play off being Prime Lorca to the point where it like, he gets someone in his bed, multiple people.
Liz: Someone who has known him for decades.
Anika: If he weren’t close enough, you know? And like, he read his logs or whatever, and it’s like, no, they’re the same person.
My version of alternate universes, my understanding of all multiverses, is that the circumstances are different, the universe is different, you’re the same. And so the mirror universe rewards your worst instincts. And so you become the worst version of yourself. But all of those instincts exist within both versions of you.
Liz: This is how Georgiou is a redeemable character, even though he was a dictator who eats people.
Anika: Exactly. Because it was the universe she was in, it was not her core self. And that’s why I love multiverse stories so much, and parallel universe stories so much, because I love to see how people are the same, people in relationships. Those are the things that remain constant. And they can appear very different because of the circumstances. And that’s the interesting part.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: But the core self is the same.
Liz: And we see this, Tilly in the mirror universe is still super smart and super ambitious and maybe trying too hard. We see the real Captain Tilly in season 3.
Anika: Absolutely.
Liz: And she is not how real Tilly portrayed her, but she’s also very much Tilly. People are shaped by their culture, but they also just have their own personality. And so, yes, like…
Anika: Look at Michael.
Liz: I was just thinking of Michael.
Anika: I think Mirror Michael is the best representation of this because she is so cutthroat and ruthless. But like we were talking about last week that Michael uses her knowledge of Saru to get what she wants.
Liz: Oh, I have more to say about that later on today.
Anika: All of those things that Mirror Michael are, our Michael has all of them within her. And also in the fifth season when they go on the ship where there’s different time variants or whatever, and she comes across Michael who is at her rock bottom. And she’s like, I wish I could tell you how great everything is going to get for you and that kind of stuff. And it’s like all these different versions of Michael are all the same Michael, and you can absolutely line them up and see again, that the core self is the same across all of them. And I just think that is wonderful. And that’s like one of the real high points of this series is how much they play with identity.
Liz: And also choice, because the whole premise of this season is that we have to choose for the Federation to be a utopia. We have to choose to be good people. And Lorca could have landed in our universe and gone, oh, I don’t have to be that guy anymore. I can be a new, different person. I could even resign from Starfleet and go and live some other life entirely. But he chooses to remain himself and to do everything he can and kill everyone necessary to get back home and take power the way he wants to go along. It’s a failure of imagination on his part.
Anika: It is, and it’s also choosing his pain, as he says in this episode.
Anika: So I want you to tell us about the historical Buran. And why that name is important.
Liz: So the Buran or Buran, I think Buran is the correct pronunciation, but as with Shenzhou, everyone pronounces it differently on this show. And I don’t think Lorca’s pronunciation is the correct one.
The Buran was the Soviet space shuttle. It was outwardly identical to the American shuttle and was almost certainly the result of espionage and stolen plans and all of that, but it was also better. It made one flight, which was entirely automated. It was uncrewed and it beat the standards they had set for its performance.
And then it kind of all fell apart because the Soviet Union had spent a lot of money invading Afghanistan and irradiating Eastern Europe, and they were broke, and couldn’t afford to have a space program and also couldn’t afford to be the Soviet Union anymore.
So the remaining Burans, I think there were two or three models. One is in a museum. The other is literally rotting in a giant shed out in Siberia or Kazakhstan or somewhere, someplace that used to be the Soviet Union. And I think it’s so sad because this was a great spaceship and it was a symbol of a future that never came to be for the Soviet Union.
I do not mourn the Soviet Union. It was not a good state, but I have this weird nostalgia for what it could have been and never was and never could have been.
And I just really like that Lorca’s ship was the dark mirror of the space shuttle. I think that’s a really cool bit of foreshadowing and the Buran, the historical Buran is sort of one of my weird special interests.
Anika: Well, I’m very happy for you then that it came into here.
Liz: I actually have a Buran t-shirt that I bought off Redbubble and I got in trouble with my mum for wearing it because it had a little hammer and sickle in one corner. “How dare you wear that?” And I was like, I just love the shuttle. My mother takes these things very seriously.
But I also, when this came up, we didn’t know any of the stuff about Lorca being from the mirror universe and I thought it was really cool that with both the Shenzhou and Buran, Star Trek was acknowledging the space programs that exist outside the US. Like, the Shenzhou was, I think, one of the first Chinese vessels. I don’t know if China has sent humans into space, but it was like one of their, it was a key part of the Chinese space program. So, yeah.
Anika: It’s one of those things where it like, oh, they remembered that Earth is not only America. Yay.
Liz: Yes, yes, so great.
Anika: It only took 60 years.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I guess 50 at that point. Anyway, yes, thank you. I really knew nothing about, I also have a weird fascination with Russia and Soviet Russia, but not their space program, more their spies.
Liz: No, that is totally fair, but I will say there is a lot of overlap between the Russian space program and the Russian espionage program.
Anika: Very true, very true. It’s one of those like, do I want to pay attention to the science or the social science?
Liz: Totally fair, totally fair.
Liz: Also in, I think it’s season three of For All Mankind, we get a Buran cameo. And the American shuttle and the Soviet shuttle like, do the driving past each other, making eye contact thing on the dark side of the moon. And it’s great. I was so happy.
Anika: Yay.
Liz: Justice for the Buran.
Anika: So before we move on to the climax, and when the two plots come together, I want to talk a little bit more about Harry Mudd, because so Ash and Lorca team up and escape. And Ash is pretty terrible to Mudd, I mean, in a great way, where he says, you know, I was just waiting for the right guy to escape with me. Because I needed there to be two people. It’s always a job to escape, but you weren’t that guy.
Liz: During little pink hearts around him and Lorca.
Anika: Yeah, exactly. So that was great. And then Harry’s like, well, I don’t care. You know, as long as you take me with you, let’s go. And they straight up leave him in Klingon prison, which is not very Starfleet of them.
Liz: It’s not. And people were very angry about it.
Anika: And so I want to talk about which Starfleet captains would leave Mudd behind if there are any others.
Liz: Archer. Archer for sure. Also Janeway.
Anika: Yeah, I mean, I think you’re right, because Archer is also… He has his own version of morality. And if you go against his version of morality, he doesn’t care. He will punish you for that. So, yes. Because Mudd is a human. There’s no prime directive stuff going on here. He can just make a judgment call and say, you’re a bad guy, let me leave you here.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Kirk would not.
Liz: I think it depends. I think season three Kirk would, but season one and two Kirk, who was a much better character, would not.
Anika: I love that. Although even then, season three, they’ve given up and he’s definitely would do it.
Liz: Even then, now I’m thinking about Kirk dropping Khan and his followers on a planet somewhere.
Anika: Maybe Kirk would. Okay, so yeah, you’re maybe. Now that you’re saying the Khan stuff, who was also a human, but although he’s like a, I don’t know. I feel like Kirk would want to save him. If I think if he was like, it was like the mission will fail if you do this, but he would try to come up with some way.
Liz: Yeah. There would be a whole set piece where McCoy is like, Jim, you can’t just leave him there, and Spock’s like, logic would dictate…
Anika: Exactly. It would be the other people, because unlike some people, Kirk actually cares about his crew and listens to his crew a lot.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Especially his most trusted advisors, and McCoy would definitely not leave him. Absolutely not. Neither would Culber.
Liz: I don’t think there is a single doctor in Star Trek who would leave him.
Anika: There’s not a single doctor who would leave him behind.
Liz: No. Picard would absolutely not leave Mudd. The episode would end with Mudd in the brig, having some amusing little conversation with Data.
Anika: You’re right. That is exactly correct. Picard would save him and then put him in the brig. He would move him from one prison to the next prison.
Liz: Yeah. It would be a more humane prison, but also more annoying prison because Data would be there. Because in this episode that I’m making up in my head, Data and Mudd have a weird friendship where they’re both very annoyed by each other. Oh my God, they’re Quark and Odo.
Anika: Well, Mudd can totally teach Data some stuff. Data would love to meet Mudd. Data loves meeting con artists. He meets more than one con artist and he loves it. He’s very into that.
Liz: Yeah. Which is funny because his brother is also a con artist. Sisko could go either way.
Anika: He’s very good at that. That’s the line that Sisko walks. It’s the line that Deep Space Nine walks. So good on them.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Janeway would totally leave Mudd behind.
Liz: Janeway would leave Mudd behind and people would be moaning about it and saying it’s evidence she’s the worst captain ever for decades to come. The whole reason that she leaves him behind is that Jeri Taylor didn’t want another supporting character or a recurring character in the lineup.
Anika: Well, and also, it’s really unfair. Janeway gets held up against every other captain and her situation is so completely unique from every other captain and it’s never fair.
Anika: And they never take the circumstances into account.
Liz: Can I just say, everyone talks about how many war crimes Janeway commits, but the Federation is not at war with any of the people Janeway encounters. So maybe she’s committing some crimes, but aside from the Borg, they’re not usually war crimes. And is it possible to commit war crimes against the Borg? Is a fun question that I’m not going to bring to my lawyer.
Anika: Is it possible to commit war crimes against the Borg? That’s a great question. But I mean, so they hate Janeway for fighting against the Borg and for working with the Borg. Like, she cannot win. No matter what Janeway does, she loses.
Liz: So it’s the Barbie monologue, Star Trek edition.
Anika: Yes, exactly. Yes.
Liz: And I guess we kind of mostly have our answers with the new Trek captains. But I just want to say, Nahla Ake would not leave Harry Mudd behind unless she absolutely had to, and then she would feel bad about it. Pike would leave him behind in a heartbeat and never think about it again.
Anika: Pike has left him behind. We just haven’t seen it. Is my feeling. And no, Nahla Ake would never, and the Mirs would save him. She would send them in as a special mission.She’d make a big deal about leaving him behind, and then there would be a secret crew that would go in and get him out.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Five minutes later. And Vance would be like, Should I not tell you not to do this? And she’d be like, I don’t know. Who can say? I just had a feeling.
Anika: “What are you talking about?”
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: All right. Thank you for playing my game.
Liz: No, it was very enjoyable. I don’t really care about Harry Mudd as a character, but I enjoy him more in Discovery than I did in The Original Series because I enjoy watching Rainn Wilson do his thing. I think he’s very charismatic and enjoyable to watch. And Mudd is a worse person in Discovery than he seemed to be in TOS. But in TOS, he’s introduced as a drug and human trafficker. So…
Anika: I don’t think he’s worse in Discovery. I think that in The Original Series, he’s played as a joke. You don’t notice that he is a drug runner and human trafficker. And then, when you realize, you’re like, oh, he’s a horrible person. Like even his second appearance where he’s like, oh, he’s taken over Android land.
Liz: So he’s enslaved a bunch of people.
Anika: Yeah, he’s enslaved a bunch of people. He’s definitely using them as sex slaves. There are many bad things. His consequence is that he has to spend time with his wife.
Liz: Yeah, I don’t like it.
Anika: But get ready for my rant when we get to the Mushroom Kingdom episode.
Liz: I am eager for it because you’re such an outlier in your opinion of this episode, and I think that’s fun.
Anika: I’m alone over here.
Liz: Yeah, I’m not with you.
Anika: It’s me and my brother.
Liz: Look, maybe I will watch it in a couple of weeks and really dislike it. Who knows?
Anika: It could happen.
Liz: I will say, Discovery Mudd is not worse than TOS Mudd. Discovery is just honest about who he is.
Anika: Exactly. I think that’s what it is. He’s played that way. He’s played as an intelligent con man instead of a buffoon.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: So we have reached the climax of the episode when Ash and Lorca escape the Klingons and fly over to Discovery.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: And Discovery has to jump away. And at this point, Michael’s plot of making people stop using the Tardigrades has worked out poorly. Saru made them do the jump, and the Tardigrade turned into a little peapod of a Tardigrade. He lost all his water and went into hibernation mode It was very sad and horrible.
Liz: I just have trouble forgiving Saru for that, because he’s like, just rehydrate it. And it’s like, dude, I just feel very strongly about animal cruelty.
Anika: That’s the horrible part, is that he legitimately just says, you know, give it some water and let’s move on. And Culber just straight up says no. And also, I have to shout out to Culber. So Culber, like, Michael first went, she was trying to go to Lorca, he wasn’t available. So, she went to Saru. Saru dismissed her and told her like to basically go sit in her quarters and do nothing. And she was like, well, I’m going to save the Tardigrade anyway.
And she went to Culber, and to Culber’s credit, he first was like, that’s, you know, you have a theory. And so we can’t just accept your theory.We have to actually do some tests and find out. And he did the tests. And then he’s like, the science is there. And they brought it to Stamets. Stamets to his credit, believed the science. And was like, okay, you guys are correct. We will try to figure something else out. And then they work with Tilly.
Anika: And the team science figures out options, but they’re not fast enough for Saru.And so, he overrides them.
Liz: I love the bit where Michael tells Culber that she can handle Stamets. And I think this is that manipulative tendency again, that she has very high emotional intelligence, and she uses it to manipulate people. And I love it because this is 100% pure, undistilled Sarek behavior. She learned this from her dad.
Anika: Exactly. Exactly. I was going to say, we know exactly where she got that from. And she’s really good at it. And that’s why she’s his favorite.
Liz: “I learned it all from you, dad.”
Anika: So, they jump to the Klingons and they’re like keeping out of sight, but along with it. Keeping up with the Klingons, which should be a show.
Liz: My favorite reality show.
Anika: And then they escape and Lorca’s like, jump and Saru’s like, jump. And we hear Stamets say, yes, we are ready to jump. Stamets, who said that he would get the tardigrade ready, or he actually says, I think I will get the Spore Drive ready because he clearly already has his plan to use himself instead of the creature. And so, they do successfully jump away, but it is not the tardigrade, who is still in hibernation mode, but instead, Stamets, who has injected himself with tardigrade DNA, which definitely works.
Liz: They didn’t have a biosciences consultant at this point. And I really love this conclusion because it feels, obviously the science is fake, but it’s real scientist behavior. The guy who discovered that all stomach ulcers are caused by bacteria, confirmed his hypothesis by injecting himself with the bacteria.
Anika: Exactly. It’s a trope.
Liz: It’s also how Dr. McCoy works most of the time. We’re following in the footsteps of great scientists and Star Trek characters.
Anika: It’s delightful because obviously once they introduced the fact that we were hurting the tardigrade, no one with a heart was on the side of hurting the tardigrade. So obviously, we couldn’t keep on doing that. That was not the Star Trek way.
And it makes Discovery even more of an outlier because first of all, just giving everyone a spore drive is already crazy. But giving everybody a spore drive and someone willing to become part mushroom in order to use it.
Liz: And also in defiance of the laws and very strict taboos around genetic manipulation.
Anika: Yes, eugenics, right. So that’s bad. So yeah, so it’s very much, this is not going to be easily transferable. And so it solves the problem of getting their army of spore drive capable starships. And it becomes very much, well, he’s already done it, so we can’t stop him from doing it. He’s already broken the law and we need him. We need the spore drive and we need Stamets to run this spore drive so we can’t prosecute any of this. It becomes a thorny legal issue, but they just keep going.
Liz: I know that this is kind of the turning point for Stamets’ character, but also, I think he was already softening as a character from his introduction because he is as horrified by harming the animal as everyone else is. And maybe that’s in part his ego because he wants to be the spore drive guy, not the guy who invented a new way to harm an animal. But I also think that he is genuinely having humanitarian impulses.
Anika: Like, you just said that McCoy is very much this type of… He would experiment on himself. Stamets reminds me of McCoy, that type of character, where he’s irascible and grumpy. But once you know him, you just see it as lovable. It’s not off-putting anymore. I think that when Michael says, I can handle Stamets, and then they go and talk, and she totally does.
Liz: Because we don’t know yet that Culber is in a relationship with Stamets, his reaction is so funny.
Anika: Right. I think that this is the moment where I came to like Stamets. And on the bridge, when Culber is like, I’m not going to do that, I refuse to do that, and she returns immediately to Stamets, and is like, okay, you do it. And Stamets agrees, but looks at Culber, gives him a look, and again, it is obvious that he’s not going to do – it’s not obvious what he’s going to do. But you’re like, something’s going on here. You get the impression that something’s going on there. But Culber thinks that he’s just doing, you know, following orders. And there’s like this interesting tension there, where he’s like, I don’t want to believe that you would go against our morals this way, but maybe you are as unconcerned as you play. Maybe you are the grumpy, irascible guy all the time. You know, and I think that’s an interesting, I don’t know, Stamets became more of a thing to me in these moments, and I came to like him. And I also really like how he treats Tilly in this episode.
Liz: Yeah, this is Star Trek‘s first F-bomb, and it’s not swearing at someone, it’s not verbally abusing someone, it’s being enthusiastic about science, and that’s so cool. I would even go so far as to say it’s very fucking cool.
Anika: Exactly. So, before we get to shipping news, which I’m sort of going to count the telescope scene as shipping news.
Liz: Ew.
Anika: Even though I didn’t even write it down there and I don’t think of it as a ship, but I think that I want to talk about that in that context, and I don’t want to talk about this in that context. So, I just want to say, this is the introduction of the Ash Tyler sexual assault subplot that is very bad, very bad all around. It’s bad in this episode. It’s worse in future episodes.They really failed to have a nuanced conversation about sexual assault.
Liz: And they were trying.
Anika: And instead, it is very much a plot piece.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: I think that they were trying, but they didn’t do it well. It was not executed well.
Liz: No. And I think, I don’t want to blame the writers for biting off more than they can chew, but I think with this and later killing Hugh, they wanted to tell a particular type of complex story, and that’s good. But they didn’t give themselves the time to do it well, and they hadn’t earned the trust of the audience yet.
Anika: I think that you’re right, that they were thinking of the character of Ash Tyler, and they were not thinking of how it relates to all of, the collateral damage of focusing on that character, and it’s just poorly handled. Both the murder and the sexual assault.
So, in this episode, it is suggested that the reason that Ash has been kept alive for seven months since the Battle of the Binary Stars is because L’Rell, who is the Klingon lady in charge, basically he’s her sexual slave.
Liz: Yeah, she’s raping him.
Anika: Which is bad. And he attacks her when he gets the opportunity in this episode. And it sells the idea that that explanation for why he is still alive and why he’s survived this long and who he is as a human. He’s a human. Definitely human.
Liz: A normal human guy, Ash Tyler. It sells the story.
Anika: It’s definitely used to sell his story. And like I said, it gets worse. I think that if this was the extent of it all, I could accept it as one of those, don’t love this plot point, but understand the purpose of it.
Anika: But they kind of lean in. They confuse the issues and make it Ash vs. Voq and what each of them think and feel and are. And again, that’s interesting, but I think they needed a little more, they needed to be more careful.
I agree with you that it’s similar to the Culber stuff and the murder of Culber. They needed to be more careful. They’re like, oh, we didn’t mean to lean into the Bury Your Gays trope. And it was like, okay, you didn’t mean to, but you did, and now you have to deal with that.
And I think that in neither case did they deal with it or acknowledge that it was a thing that happened. They left it to poor Mary Chieffo to try to explain the rape. And that was that.
Liz: And what’s interesting with both of these problems is that the showrunners at the time were a woman and a gay man. And I completely understand wanting to explore stories that are taboo and that, you know, particularly with the intention of Culber’s story being a love-wins-out story, I think that’s really cool. But you do need to earn the trust of your audience.
And I just don’t know if there’s ever going to be a time and a place where, surprise, what we thought was rape was actually not is a good storytelling choice. But particularly not in the 20 teens or the 2020s.
Anika: Exactly. I’m having Picard season 2 flashbacks.
Liz: Leaving Mary Chieffo to hold the bag on that was a really poor choice. Because this was her first big role. She was just out of Juilliard.
Anika: And it was just completely unfair.
Liz: Yeah. So let’s talk about shipping news. Lorca and Cornwell have a conversation and rewrite my brain chemistry.
Anika: I’m just saying, and like you said, I posted that. So, I have the receipts that as of this episode, I knew that they were exes, and then it’s confirmed in the next one. And I just felt, I felt so smart.
Liz: When this episode goes up, you should find that Tumblr post and reblog it to our podcast Tumblr.
Anika: Yes, yes. I love it. I think I say this over and over again, but I love it when stories are what they are telling us they are. I don’t know how to say this correctly, but when foreshadowing and subtext, payoff, and tropes and hints and breadcrumbs are used well, so that the shocking twist was there all along. It can be hidden, but it was broadcast. I don’t like stories where the twist comes out of nowhere and is only there for a twist, and they spent the entire season trying to hide it instead of trying to broadcast it. This series, they broadcast everything.
Liz: I think that’s almost what makes the Ash-L’Rell rape subplot stand out so much, that in a series where everything is very carefully set up, that was the exception.
Anika: Right, I think that’s … yes. So I was so pleased that was where they were going with those characters, and that it wasn’t just the actor’s chemistry, and it wasn’t just my shipping goggles, it was part of the story. And that just makes the story richer.
Liz: And this is the episode where Lorca starts to make sense, and where I went, okay, this guy is off the rails, but I understand why. And that is part of it. And it’s, this is where I started to feel like I was in safe hands in terms of the storytelling, that I could just sit back and enjoy the ride because they knew what they were doing, mostly.
Anika: And his explanation of I blew up my ships so that they wouldn’t be captured, given what we know about the Klingons and how they ate Georgiou, yeah. We can be like, okay, that’s like not, that’s not the choice I would choose. That’s not the choice that, you know, we could go through the Starfleet captains with that question as well. And we could discuss it, but it was a reasonable explanation. Like you said, oh, it makes sense. Maybe I don’t like it, but it makes sense.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: And it would make sense as to why he was not getting to know the Discovery crew. He was not buddy buddy with them, you know. Of course he’s not. He has a post-traumatic stress from blowing up his ship and all of the people he knew.
Liz: Also, I do think that he sincerely grieved that crew, even though they weren’t his real crew. I think later he says that he would gladly serve with any of the Discovery crew. He means it because it’s like his one redeeming feature, ultimately, that he is devoted to his officers. It’s just sometimes he’s willing to kill them for his own goals. I don’t think that he sees any contradiction in that.
Anika: No. But again, that’s his universe. That’s what he was raised to. That’s what he’s understood. It’s a great episode for Lorca. It’s a great episode for Lorca and Kat, and I love it.
It’s also a great episode for Lorca and Ash, who, to be very clear, I was never expecting Lorca and Ash to actually be a couple.
Liz: No, no.
Anika: The way that I was expecting Lorca and Kat to be a couple, but the chemistry is there.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: Both of them are leaning into it. Lorca because he is a collector of people, and Ash because that was his job.
Liz: Yes. But also, I think Jason Isaacs and Shazad Latif were at least somewhat aware of the homoerotic undertones that were leaning into it. I remember there was one of their Instagrams where they’re out in the city somewhere. Shazad is kissing Jason on the cheek, and it’s really cute. They knew what they were doing in a way that-
Anika: They knew what they were doing. The beginning of the next episode is one of the most sexy Star Trek scenes.
Liz: It’s so funny that we’re not, as a general rule, people who have male-male ships.
Anika: I know.
Liz: Yet, the one exception is the worst possible exception.
Anika: The worst possible one. But I had so many- This was when I was doing my Pixie Ships discussions and there are multiple variations on Lorca and Ash. So just it hit something there.
Liz: I just think also just the way Lorca addresses Ash as soldier is sexy, but tells us a lot about who he is and how he sees himself. I developed this idea of Lorca as a guy who sees himself as a soldier whose job is to protect the scientific and diplomatic missions of his crew and his ship, and that’s how he defines his work. So that was a real key to get into Lorca’s head.
Anika: I don’t ship Lorca/Mudd at all, but I know that there are those. So I put it there.
Liz: I want to shout out friend of the podcast Fran, who has written multiple, not so much Lorca reciprocating, but Mudd being high key obsessed with Lorca and schemes and shenanigans ensuing.
Anika: Which is, yeah, I can like, Mudd is high key obsessed with Lorca in certain ways.
Liz: We will see more of that.
Anika: That makes sense.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And then Michael/Tilly, I think this episode is such a good portrayal of they are destined to be besties.
Anika: Yes. I don’t really ship it.
Liz: I don’t, but I see why people do.
Anika: But I see why people do. Tilly is adorable.
Liz: This is an episode which shows us that even though Tilly is ambitious, she doesn’t let it get in the way of her… She doesn’t compromise her morals for her ambition.
Anika: Yes. It’s a good Tilly episode. It gives us, I love feeling feelings.
Liz: I thought that was “Lethe”, but no, that’s this. And in that moment, you really see the seeds of the person she’s going to be in Starfleet Academy, that she is still finding her way there, but she has this emotional intelligence that frankly, or I would say emotional self-awareness that Michael at this point lacks.
Anika: Love. I love her.
And Stamets and Culber are confirmed in a relationship by the end of this episode. We knew before it started airing, but their first scenes last week and this week were not shippy at all. And so it does sort of feel like a reveal at the end when they’re doing their cute little brushing their teeth scene to prove that they are definitely sleeping together. They share quarters, they are in a relationship. It is unclear exactly what the status is, but it is a long-term and serious relationship.
Liz: I was not aware of this. I wasn’t really following like the spoilers before it started airing. So this did come as a surprise to me. Even a bit of a disappointment because I was looking forward to seeing them fall in love and seeing them build a connection. The show taking the time to sell me on the relationship because I was very skeptical of Stamets at first, and I wanted to watch them fall in love. I still feel cheated about that.
Nearly all of our queer relationships in Modern Trek have been established relationships and it’s really only Jay-Den and, what’s his face? You know, the guy that everyone loves, the fish boy.
Anika: Kyle.
Liz: Jay-Den and Kyle, but also, what’s his face? The fish boy who we’re getting to see fall in love, and that’s the one that gets canceled.
Anika: I’m so mad about that. I think that scene is very cute. Whenever a couple is brushing their teeth together, I think of Bring It On, which is a very me thing to say. But that’s all I could think of. It’s all I could think of. But anyway.
The only thing that really stuck out to me in that scene is And so I feel like maybe they didn’t mean to draw a parallel there, but they kind of accidentally did.that Culber says that he chose glory, which is what L’Rell says to Lorca earlier. I mean, definitely Stamets chooses his own pain over the Tardigrade’s pain. Like, that’s sort of explicit. That’s actually in the plot.
But it’s interesting to me that Culber uses the word glory, which – neither L’Rell nor Lorca are good people. So we don’t want to be saying that Stamets is in the same vein, even though as you have already mentioned, he is certainly very egotistical and proud.
Liz: I do see a parallel though. I think Lorca and Stamets are tied to one another. Stamets is working for Lorca in the Mirror Universe, and that’s how he got trapped in the Mycelial Network.
Anika: That’s true. That’s true.
Liz: And then Lorca kills him because Stamets is, you know, no longer useful to him. But I do think that there is a connection there. It’s Lorca who says, make the Empire glorious again. Glory is the word, the key word. And I think later in the season, they sort of come to find common ground right before the final jump to the Mirror Universe. And that’s Lorca saying that he’s probably going to get a Medal of Honor, but it really should go to Stamets. And it’s the first time that Stamets and he are really on the same side. Because he has appealed to Stamets’ desire for glory.
Anika: And because that scene then does end with the horror movie, his reflection remains, which is never really explained, but it’s fine. You can make connections, but it’s not ever said.
Liz: It’s making the Mirror Universe concept very, very, very literal.
Anika: Right. It makes Stamets creepy, right? So that’s, I think you said last week that there was the horror elements and the sort of leftover from the Bryan Fuller. And this episode still has horror elements. The pilot at the beginning is pretty ravaged explicitly for no particular reason. And then we have this at the end that is straight out of the horror movie, you know, setting up the sequel.
Liz: Yes, yes, yes.
Anika: That you think you’ve killed the monster, but it’s still here.
Liz: It’s in your house and it’s wearing your pajamas.
Anika: Yeah, we’re still in that story in some ways.
Liz: And this is still a very visceral episode. It’s certainly very violent. It’s just not as graphic as in previous episodes. Like, L’Rell is shot in the face and she’s going to be horribly scarred, but that is the worst thing we see, and we know that that’s all makeup. Like, we know that Landry’s injuries were all makeup, but it’s different when it’s a human. Racist.
Anika: And which brings us to Michael and Saru in the telescope.
Liz: I hate this scene. I just don’t feel like Saru had earned it yet. I like the idea of Michael passing Georgiou’s physical legacy onto Saru. I just don’t think he deserves it. She’s rewarding his bad behavior.
Anika: I have very strong feelings about this. This is the scene that in earlier episodes, I said, oh, well, next episode, I’m going to rant about this. And then it turned out that it was not for like three more episodes. But this is the scene that I wanted to rant about because, yes, it is rewarding bad behavior. Saru does not earn this telescope in any way, or Michael’s respect.
I think you said in an earlier episode that you worry that people who love Saru right away were just sort of grasping for the closest white man in the main cast. And this really feels like not only are we going to demote in prison and, you know, force that black woman to like apologize over and say she’s wrong over and express her guilt over and over, we are also going to make her give up the one thing that was gifted to her from her mentor.
Liz: In this early part of season one, there is a real streak of white male entitlement and white male victimhood in Saru. And I don’t think it’s intentional, but I do think it’s part of why Michael haters glommed onto him so hard. And still in season four, were saying, he should have been captain, she doesn’t even deserve to be on a ship. And by that point, he’s earned it, he’s moved on from this phase. But the idea that Michael is victimizing him simply by being on the ship, maybe embodies a little too well the opinions of some bad fans. I’m going to use this as our clip for TikTok, and people are going to be entertaining in the comments, and then I’m going to laugh at them.
Anika: I wrote a fic where he gives it back because I was like, nope, I can’t sleep at night with the idea that the telescope that Georgiou explicitly says represents her pride in Michael was living in Saru’s cabin. It hurts my soul.
Liz: I like to think Emperor Georgiou did a little bit of a heist to steal that telescope, and she was like, actually, neither if you get it, it’s mine. But my real headcanon is that Saru donated the telescope to Starfleet and it’s on display in Starfleet HQ in the 32nd century.
Anika: So that’s great. It can be donated to a museum for Georgiou, and that’s lovely. I would have done a 180 on Saru if he had said, thank you, but you should keep it.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: It would have been so easy for me to be suddenly on Saru’s side if he had just not accepted it or said something like, we can share it or let’s donate it to a museum. And he’s not there. Like you said, he has to grow too. And maybe I’m being unfair if I’m like, it’s okay for Michael to have a growth arc, but I don’t want to watch Saru’s growth arc. So, you know, I have blinders too. I like, he just turns me off.
Liz: I mean, I just think it’s a writing problem where this character – at no point so far has he been generous. He has said positive things about Michael, but only when he thought that she was on the ship for a few days. And we don’t see him having positive interactions with anyone else. Whereas Michael, she’s a little bitch to Saru at every turn, and he deserves it, but that’s not the point. But she is so generous with Tilly, and she has these positive interactions with Culber and Stamets, and she has respectful interactions with everyone else, and we don’t see Saru interact with anyone except Michael.
Anika: Yeah. I think that’s-
Liz: Even if we just had Saru giving Tilly some good advice, it would have done a lot to make him a more tolerable character. Something to show us that there is more to him than being mean and bitter about Michael.
Anika: It’s so painful.
Liz: It really is.
Anika: What if he had talked to someone and anyone, really, other than ChatGPT?
Liz: No, no, no.
Anika: He could have asked someone, who do you think the best captains are? He could have asked Tilly, who is a cadet, who in theory is in Starfleet history. And she could have said, well, these are the ones that come up in my recent class or whatever. And they could have discussed it. And it would have been a better scene for both of them.
Liz: And teaching a cadet a lesson, but also learning something from the cadet is a story trope for a reason.
The one thing I do like about the telescope scene is that the telescope symbolizes leadership and mentorship and captaincy. And so we have Michael and Georgiou with the telescope in the first episode and Michael and Saru with the telescope in this episode.
And then in season five, when Michael is offering Rayner a position as her first officer, there is a telescope in the room. It’s a tiny thing. It’s not commented on. It’s just a prop. It’s not the same prop. I checked, because I did wonder. And this is where I developed my idea about Saru donating the telescope. But yeah, it’s a thing and it persists.
Anika: Good. That’s good. I like that. And it’s a great symbol for exploration and for like that version of Georgiou. So it’s a wonderful symbol. It’s a really well done idea. The concept is totally there. I just, it just offends me that she gives it away to him and that he doesn’t…
Liz: And at this point, I think if they had had a conversation here about how Saru feels and where he’s honest about his feelings, which helps him move on from this. And then later in the season, she gives him the telescope like he would have earned it. Here, it’s just rewarding his bad behaviour.
Anika: Right, exactly. After this episode, she tells him you were a good captain and gives him a telescope and I thought: no.
Liz: Girl.
Anika: That’s not what I watched.
Liz: Okay. Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at antimatterpod.com, including links to our social media, credits for our theme music and transcripts of our episodes. You can follow us on Facebook, Tumblr, TikTok, Instagram, and Blue Sky, all at Antimatter Pod, and on Mastodon at antimatterpod@tenforward.social. Someone keeps @ing us on Mastodon with snippets of Lorca/Cornwell fic, and it’s great and you should keep doing it. Thank you.
If you like us, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your podcasts. The more reviews, the easier it is for new listeners to find us. And join us next week when we’ll be discussing the next episode of Discovery Season 1, “Lethe”. We’re going to be normal. I keep saying that and it keeps being true.
Anika: Very normal.