Anika and Liz take their podiums to discuss Star Trek: Starfleet Academy‘s “Vox In Excelso”. But there’s not much debate to be had, because we agree it’s very good!
- Liz, a former debate kid, has a lot of feelings about this episode (and also about how debate bros have ruined the fine art of having a structured argument)
- We don’t need Star Trek: United because we already have SFA
- Caleb is critical of the Federation, but he also embodies its values, both the humanistic and paternalistic tendencies
- Is this an allegory for the queer experience, or is Jay-Den literally gay? And if he is not, we will be demanding compensation for queerbaiting.
- “Actually, your dad abandoned you because he was supporting you” feels like Worf Parenting Apologia, but also, Lura clearly comes from a happy family and cannot imagine anything else
- Klingons are climate refugees
- A lot of YA is about the fantasy of teens having power; this is about the fantasy of adults respecting teens but taking responsibility for fixing the world
- Are we meant to be shipping Darem/Jay-Den? Because we think Darem is shipping it…
- Building a love interest for Captain Ake (when your brain was rewired by Picard/Crusher at a formative age)
Transcript
(Please note this transcript was generated automatically by Apple Podcasts, and though it was edited by a human, some errors may remain.)
Liz: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. Today we’re discussing Star Trek: Starfleet Academy episode four, “Vox In Excelso.” Or, Klingon honor is one thing, but public speaking is quite another. So relatable, she says on her podcast, which has an audience.
Anika: Would Jay-Den be better off with a podcast, perhaps?
Liz: I would listen to Jay-Den’s podcast, but I’m concerned that Darem is the character most likely to be a podcaster. And the Doctor, of course. Strong podcaster energy.
Anika: The Doctor already has one. We know, for a fact.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My toxic trait is that I really enjoy public speaking and I was a debate kid in high school. So yeah, this is actually my favorite episode of the six so far. Everyone’s talking about episode five, but it’s episode four for me.
Anika: Oh, so why is it toxic? Please unpack that for me.
Liz: I feel like debate bros have really made debate as a skill, as a hobby, as a way of arguing, really toxic. You know, they’re like, “debate me bro” about basic human rights, usually on Twitter. And it’s really just an opportunity for them to monologue about their side and their ill-considered opinions. And it’s basically turning the debate into propaganda.
Whereas, as a debate kid, we were always like, this is entirely theoretical. This has little to do with real life and real arguing, but it’s a skill, it’s a set of skills that you need to develop in terms of research and impartial research and building an argument that you don’t necessarily believe in, and delivering that argument coherently to an audience.
These are useful skills, and they’re essential skills for a Starfleet officer because you never know when an alien is going to come along and put humanity on trial, or you’re going to have to go into court and fight for your friend’s right to not be disassembled. So yeah.
Anika: It happens more often than you think.
Liz: This is where lawyer Picard learned his skills.
Anika: Yes, Picard was definitely in Debate Club. Let’s be honest.
Liz: Oh my god. I just want to float the idea that Picard was the Caleb of the Debate Club at the Academy in his day. Like, he was a rebel and he would roll in, hung over, and then he would just wipe the floor with everyone. And then go out drinking again.
Anika: Amazing. Okay. Thank you for elaborating. I really appreciate that. I was not a debater.
Liz: I feel like you can tell that I was a debater kid and you were a theater kid, because I am the one editing out the bits where I cannot stop myself from well actually-ing you.
Anika: Oh no. Well, and I just want to say, so I was recording my little vids for the countdown and my son, you know, was in the other room and not really paying attention, but could hear me doing it.
And he said, “I was really impressed with your work because you were editing yourself while recording. Like, you wouldn’t stop the reel, you would just stop talking and then start over and do it better. And I didn’t know that was a thing.”
And I was like, oh yeah, well those are my improv and live theater type skills. That’s where my skill set lies. I can be in the middle of an argument and then I will stop and take a different tack instead of having something well prepared or knowing anything about the law.
Liz: Well, I thought that your presentation on those reels was fantastic. You’ve got a great presence, you speak well, you were rehearsed but not over rehearsed. So yeah, they were great. They were fun to watch. You should be a TikTok influencer.
Anika: Star Trek TikTok, here I come.
Liz: I think Darem is also the kid most likely to be a TikTok influencer.
Anika: Yeah, but you know, I would love Sam’s TikToks.
Liz: Oh my goodness.
Anika: I think that she could really accidentally become an influencer.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anika: And then the doctor would find out and he would start stage managing her. And it would be a disaster. But, but you know.
Liz: But he would also be like, back in my day, we had long form video essays. And then he would bust out his Briefings with Neelix appearances. And it would be dreadful. The kids don’t have the attention span for that.
Anika: Amazing. Okay. So what was this episode actually about?
Liz: I think it’s about being true to who you are. And in doing so, enabling your culture to be true to who it is. But not to the point of nihilism. If you come from a warrior culture that’s about not communicating.
Anika: Yes. So those Klingons, I mean, I feel like I’ve said more than once on this podcast, that the Klingons are just trying to destroy themselves at all times. And that the way that their culture works is not great for long-term survival as a culture. And I think this episode proves me correct.
Liz: Yes. Yes. I think this has been brought up at various points over Star Trek itself.
Anika: Absolutely.
Liz: But taken to extremes, Klingon culture can become a death cult.
Anika: That’s rough. Yeah. I think that so far this series is really what people want. Not what people, what I, what you and I would want Star Trek: United to be. In that it is not taking anything at face value. It’s saying, okay, who are the Klingons? Who are the Betazoids? Who are the humans? And how do they fit into the Federation? How do they fit into the galaxy, the universe, that the Federation exists within? How does all of that work together? And how does it not work together? And, you know, what do we need to address?
Liz: And how can we as a Federation be true to our principles by helping people in need without being paternalistic or condescending or offending them?
Anika: Right. Of course, Caleb’s gonna be like, we should help people.
Liz: Mm, yeah.
Anika: Because people didn’t help him. And it kind of went bad. It was a bad way to grow up. But at the same time, it’s not like he trusts the Federation or Starfleet at all either. So it’s interesting for him to be so all in and to represent that. He’s so into the task that he becomes blinded as well, even though it’s not even really necessarily his quote unquote culture.
Liz: No, no. But I think he’s also very pragmatic. And so as he sees that the Federation can help the Klingons, therefore the Federation should help the Klingons. And that’s the right thing to do. Separate from his own feelings about the Federation itself. Like, survive now, deal with everything else later.
Anika: And I also think it’s personal because Jay-Den is his bestest friend.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: And possibly the only one he’s ever had.
Liz: Oh, it is 100%. But also this is an episode that confronts the fact that Caleb and Jay-Den haven’t really chosen to be friends. They’ve just kind of been thrown together in a lot of situations. And they get on well, but do they really like or trust each other yet? And they have to get through the conflict of this episode to get to that point where, yeah, we’re bros, we’re brothers.
Anika: Right. Jay-Den is clearly very sheltered as well. Like he seems to have grown up with his family, and that’s about it. Like maybe they knew a few other Klingon families that they saw when they went to market or something, but they didn’t seem to be particularly social or even have the opportunity to be social.
Liz: It seems like, given a choice between refugee camps and just being out on your own, basically living a nomadic, almost homeless camping lifestyle, they chose independence and isolation, which is rough if you have a kid as intellectually smart as Jay-Den.
Obviously his brother thrived in that environment, but Jay-Den didn’t, and even his brother, who was thriving, was murdered. I kind of feel like that’s what prompted the family to join up with other houses and end up in this situation. They realized that there was no safety.
Anika: Right. So we should at least have society.
Liz: Yeah. If we can’t protect our children, we can at least be with our own people.
Anika: Right. Which is, you know, I agree. That is the better track.
Liz: Yeah. Klingons seem like a very social people.
Anika: Oh, absolutely. It’s rough. But I mean, that said, his family seemed to be very, even though they weren’t particularly welcoming, I guess, to Jay-Den’s points of view all the time, they were close. It was a family, a bonded family. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. We know that his mother taught him to watch birds and they spend time together. They eat together. They sing together. They share their culture. And it’s interesting. Jay-Den leaving and his family leaving him feels like an allegory for the queer kid being kicked out for being queer.
But also, then Lura’s like, oh no, that was your dad letting you go. That was him being proud of you. And I’m like, is it, Lura? Or is it just that you come from a functional, loving family and can’t imagine anything else?
Anika: I think we’re supposed to take Lura’s explanation as true. But I agree with you that it’s not, that’s not how that works.
I’ve seen this in many different forms on television, where it’s the disapproving dad who, it was literally on two other shows this week. So just saying, this is a well-known trope, but there’s the disapproving parent who comes around, but their pride doesn’t allow them to say that they’ve come around, so they have to do it in some weird secret handshake kind of way.
And that, I mean, it just seemed, and you know, that’s very Klingon of them. Again, these are not people who, I mean, the end of this episode is we have to pretend, like everyone knows what’s going on here, but in order to save face, we have to pretend that this other thing is happening. And that’s, you know, sure. If it works, okay, let’s just do it. But it is also very silly as a way of communicating. And it’s writ large with the whole battle, and it’s tiny in I missed the bird, and then I left you behind.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: And somehow that means I love you. Like, okay, sure.
Liz: I abandoned you.
Anika: I love you and I’m proud of you. I abandoned you because I think that you’re good enough to do it. And it’s like, cool. I’m good enough to survive. I would rather survive with you.
Liz: I am now wondering if this is good Klingon parenting, and thus makes Worf a much better dad than we’ve ever realized.
Anika: Oh my gosh.
Liz: But I don’t know that we actually needed to do this to rehabilitate Worf’s fatherhood.
Anika: I don’t think that Worf’s fatherhood needed to be rehabilitated. Worf should have been a better father, but as a story, we don’t need to retcon Worf’s parenting into something noble.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: They totally did though. That’s hilarious. I think it’s related. I think that the fact that the Klingons care more about their quote-unquote honor than their actual lives and how they parent their children, it’s the same. I think it’s the same issue. And I am not a Klingon, so I’m not going to say that it’s wrong as a human. I can say that’s not what I would choose. And I think that there are better ways to go about it.
Liz: Have you tried having a conversation?
Anika: They’re more healthy. And I’m known for that at work, I’m the person who comes up and says, what if we talk to each other? Yeah, yeah. And it’s amazing how many better things happen when you talk to each other, but it’s also something that people don’t want to do. They have their own ideas of what the issue is that are external to this other person’s belief system.
Liz: I will say my ancestry is from the north of England and from Scotland, and so I would rather die than have an awkward conversation. It’s actually very relatable.
Anika: Whereas, I don’t know, I will say where my family is from and you can tell me if this is a… I was raised by a Swedish mother and grandparents, fully Swedish. And I was also raised at a university. And I do think that…
Liz: Yes, I suspect that.
Anika: That is the actual cultural origin story of everything. Anika is the university.
Liz: Yes, yes. On a world building level, I really like the Klingon diaspora and the loss of Qo’noS. I feel like Qo’noS’ survival has been kind of marginal for a very long time. Going back to the season one Star Trek: Discovery finale where they’re like, hey, maybe we won’t blow Qo’noS up. But also the risk to it from the explosion of Praxis. The Klingon home world has always been fragile.
A lot of this story and a lot of the way people talk about the Klingon diaspora is how I see people talking about climate refugees. When a disaster hits the southern or southwestern parts of the US and everyone’s like, oh, well, this is their fault. They did it to themselves by voting Republican.
And it’s like, even if that were true, I don’t think you appreciate how this is a universal planet-wide problem and this could be you in a couple of years.
Anika: Oh, yeah, absolutely. It is very disheartening. The weather is crazy everywhere these days.
Liz: Yes, yes.
Anika: It has altered significantly within my lifetime and memory.
Liz: Yeah, same.
Anika: It’s real and it’s going to affect everyone. It’s just crazy to think that it has anything to do with politics.
Liz: I feel like all of this stuff with the Klingons, it really highlights how good the Burn and the Dilithium shortage before it were as a metaphor for environmental collapse.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: And people are like, oh, it’s so unrealistic that Starfleet wasn’t looking for alternatives to dilithium. And A, they were. And B, yeah, what kind of culture knows that an environmental problem is coming and doesn’t do everything in its power to mitigate it? That would never happen in real life.
Anika: Here in Connecticut, we are coastal. We have been trying to build a wind farm. And it finally got through the state level stuff and got money from both the state and federal governments to build the wind farm.
And twice already, the Trump administration has canceled it and basically just held the money hostage so that it couldn’t move forward. And it got turned around by the courts and everything. And then they just do it again. And we have to go through it anyway. It takes months. It’s costing money to not have the wind farm.
But they’re against wind. The very idea of an alternative energy stream is anathema to the Trump administration. It’s completely ridiculous. We need to do these things now to be prepared for them. But bureaucracy stops it. And something as huge as the Federation, bureaucracy is all over it.
Liz: Absolutely. And that’s another quality of imperial decline, that you have this bureaucratic class that is powerful but not effective. This was a thing with the Roman Empire. And whenever a Chinese dynasty is on the verge of collapse, this is when the bureaucrats come to the fore.
And in general, I’m very pro-big government, and I think that government should be a part of people’s lives. But when you get to the point of this bureaucratic class not achieving anything, that’s the problem.
Anika: Yeah, I mean, I am…
Liz: You work for a university, you know the problem of bureaucracy.
Anika: The first level of it is necessary, but when you have the people who are the in-betweeners, who are like, I’m going to talk to this person, who talks to this person, and again, you don’t have the people who are actually doing things talking to each other. That’s the part that needs to be filed away. And it’s, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz: Yeah, I will say I like Vance and Nahle’s solution of just going around what Klingon bureaucracy exists and going straight to her ex, who was like, I love you. I’m so happy to spend time with you. I will look out for your cadet. I am not going to compromise my culture, and let’s face it, his own political status, for the survival of our people.
Anika: Right, right. And I respect that he really seems to be trying to find loopholes. Like he was saying, look, if you can find a way to do this that saves face for everybody, great, I’m on board. But as I said, I’m not going to compromise my culture or my position. I can do more good in this position than accepting this, and then all the Klingons keep going on without me and I’m living on a planet by myself. That’s not going to save the Klingons either.
Liz: And also they’ve lost their last reasonable leader. Although I will say he does come across as a bit of a Democratic Party leadership figure in terms of going, but my position means we can’t change.
Anika: He’s definitely over a hundred years old.
Liz: So yeah, yeah, rough. Yeah. Break down the Klingon gerontocracy. But also I think Nahle looks at these situations and because she’s so old and because I think Lanthanite culture by its nature has to be super flexible. She’s like, just change. And that’s not a solution either.
Anika: Again, we have been saying this since way back in like 800 years ago time period. Like Spock was like, hey, Klingons, you should change.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: That was a really long time ago and they haven’t changed yet. So it’s slow going.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s like the Vulcans. I think because there are longer lived species, they’re more traditional. They have a harder time changing because people live longer. And it seems like the Lanthanites are the only species, and we’ve only seen two of them, like Pelia and Nahle might be outliers. But they seem like the only ones who are culturally flexible. And I think that’s because they’ve grown up as a minority hiding among humans. So to what extent did they have their own culture at all?
Anika: Yeah, let’s see what, yeah. But it is also interesting that humans are willing to change because they’re short lived and Lanthanites are willing to change because they’re long lived. I think that that is also like the median. Like you were just, you know, the centrists are the ones who are least willing to change.
And I know that you would think it would be the traditionalists and the conservatives, but I would like to, again, wave my hands at all of America and say, the traditionalists and the conservatives are the ones who are currently trying to blow up the 250 year old country that I live in.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: So they’re not being conservative or traditional, but they are being that mindset of don’t change, go back. They’re trying to push us back, right? And it’s the centrists who are the ones who are dug in and saying, we’re staying right here, and we need to be the people on the other side, or join me over on the far left and try to do literally anything before we’re all annihilated.
Liz: I will also say that we see a lot of evidence that many Klingons have changed because we’re seeing so many Klingon hybrids. You know, Nus Braka is half Tellarite, Lura is half Jem’Hadar, and clearly her family joined with the Jem’Hadar and merged their cultures and are, you know, she’s really a third culture kid.
And I think that’s why she is so slow in coming to Jay-Den because she says she’s never mentored a Klingon, and she is scared that she’s going to mess it up. But also her experience with Klingon identity is very different from his.
Anika: Is different, yes.
While we’re on the subject of different Klingon cultures, I guess, my son, he loves Jay-Den. And when we get into how… You’ve already brought up that this is a queer allegory. And my son and I are like, no, but this is actually, actually gay. Like gay allegory, yes, but also very gay. But he was like, I really like that there’s, it’s hard for Jay-Den because he is both a Klingon. Like, if he is queer, but even if it’s just a nerd, even if it’s just not a warrior, you know, a healer, that he is both a Klingon, which is a minority and a marginalized race in all of Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.
He’s the only one that you clearly don’t know a lot about, Klingons. They know the stereotypes. And as well as being, you know, whatever queer slash nerd, marginalized within his own culture. He really likes that dual marginalization.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, that dual marginalization.
Anika: The intersectionality of his marginalization is very interesting. We had just watched, my son is now watching SVU with me, which gotta say, is the most amazing thing to ever happen.
Liz: Yeah, that sounds wild.
Anika: But we had just watched the episode where Finn’s son introduces Finn to his fiancé.
Liz: Oh.
Anika: And.
Liz: I’ve only seen the episodes where Finn finds out his son is gay and has a bit of a moment about it. So that’s so nice.
Anika: It’s a really good 20 year arc for that. But, you know, in the episode, you know, bad things happen because it’s SVU. And Finn has this talk. Anyway, he’s like, look, my son is black and he’s gay and he has a cop for a dad. And that’s a lot. And we had just watched that episode. And so we were looking at this and Jay-Den’s whole story. He just has all of these identities layered on top of himself. And that’s a lot.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think Klingon society is necessarily homophobic, but I think there’s a strong, even if you’re gay, you’re still a big macho Klingon gay dude. Jay-Den is not just queer, we think, but also he’s soft. He is subverting the very strict Klingon gender binary. That’s hard to do.
Anika: I just think in this series that is so firmly swinging for my son’s generation.
Liz: Yes.
Anika: It’s great to have those layers, because I do think that Gen Z and Alpha, I guess, are growing up in a time period where thinking about all of your identities is… You’re not… No one is just one thing. I think it’s very on-brand or cool to know all of the different things, to look at all of the facets.
I remember growing up and being like, I’m part this and part this, and that somehow mattered. It somehow had something to do with anything. And we didn’t talk about, queerness in the same way. It wasn’t a conversation piece. But my son and his friends, that’s almost the first question you get asked.
Liz: Yeah, I remember my mother was, she met one of my brother’s friends and she was like, why did this girl tell me the first time we met that she’s asexual? I can guess what that means, but what difference does it make?
And I was like, because my brother is a fair bit younger than me, and I think this girl was younger again. And I was like, to her, this is a really important part of who she is. And she’s saying she’s not romantically interested in my brother, and she doesn’t want to be set up, and stuff like that. To Mum, this was way too much information.
And I get that because I’m also kind of, I really see my mum’s side, but also, this is just how people see the world. And maybe they’ll grow out of it, maybe they won’t, and they’re not actually doing anything wrong. I will say, having seen all six screeners, if Jay-Den isn’t queer, canonically, I’m going to call it queerbaiting. And I’m going to-
Anika: That’s what I said to her. I was like, if he’s not queer, then I have personally been queerbaited, and I demand-
Liz: Compensation.
Anika: And satisfaction for it. Come on. It could, they could, who knows what will happen. But I seriously, guys.
Liz: This is the first Star Trek to use the word polycule. So-
Anika: This is not an Ortegas situation.
Liz: No, no. And the scene where Darem and Jay-Den are doing the chant, and they’re standing so close to each other. It’s filmed like it’s for a 4:3 ratio. That’s how close they are. And I watched that the other week, and I was like, oh, this is a series for Tumblr, because that’s what Tumblr wants, characters standing too close to each other and having sexual tension. And clearly this is a gay allegory. But then I started watching the episodes again, and I was like, oh no, it’s not an allegory. Jay-Den is just gay.
Anika: Yeah. And this is the second episode in a row where a boy has been making eyes at Jay-Den.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Because we had Kyle last week.
Anika: We had Kyle last week. And I don’t know how to describe Darem’s reaction at the end of that scene other than crush.
Liz: Yeah, I feel like Darem was really, he got to the point of thinking maybe Jay-Den is going to kiss me, but Jay-Den has his own stuff going on. And just retreats into himself again. And one of the things I like about this episode is that it doesn’t tell us what Jay-Den is thinking at every moment. No one is coming in to explain the subtext on that level. I appreciate that. But also I think Darem is like, but I thought we were having a moment. I know.
Anika: I thought we were having a moment.
Liz: I’ve also noticed that because the first two episodes dropped the other day, so everyone’s talking about it. And I’ve noticed a lot of men in fandom have crushes on Jay-Den. And I’m really glad. And I’m also really glad that they did cast 20-somethings as these teenagers, because otherwise it would be creepy.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: We can admire Sandro Rosta’s muscles all we want, because he’s a grown up.
Anika: So I just want to say, I think that this was a really good episode for this particular series. If they’re serious about broadening the Star Trek fan base.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: Bringing it to the new generation.
Liz: And I think it really effectively used the young adult setup in that Jay-Den, he’s a kid, he’s not in a position to affect policy. He doesn’t have a lot of agency, but his suggestions can be taken on board. But then it’s the opposite of what Pike did with Uhura, and she’s like, no, you’ve made the suggestion and we’re the adults, and we made the decision and we bear the responsibility, and this is not on you.
Anika: Oh my gosh, that part was so rewarding.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: For the adults to take responsibility and say, this is not on you, and whatever happens, you tried something, and that’s all that matters for your story.
Liz: A lot of YA is about giving teens the fantasy of having agency and control over their lives. But I think in this instance and in this era, it’s almost more important to give them the fantasy of adults who respect them and take their solutions on board and then take responsibility. These kids are not in the position of single-handedly saving the universe.
Anika: Yes. I feel like a lot of our generation Star Trek fans, or I should say a lot of them, but the stereotypical ones, they’re going to be mad at it. That’s what they want. It’s like if you’re going to have these young people, then you have to have the young people as the heroes.
Liz: Yeah, because we grew up with Wesley Crusher saving the ship.
Anika: Exactly. They just want that. I never wanted that. I don’t like the fact that all of Star Trek: Discovery and all of Star Trek: Picard, it was always these particular people that you’re talking to. I should say all of Star Trek. All of Star Trek is this particular crew that you’re talking to is the only ones who can save the entire galaxy now. That is not my favorite part of Star Trek or television or storytelling. I like the little stuff. I just think that there are stronger stories when the stakes aren’t the world is ending. Yeah. So, this had huge stakes because it really mattered to the Klingons if they accepted the planet or not.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But it wasn’t a universe-ending thing. And it wasn’t on these kids to figure it out. It was on Vance and Nahle and the Klingon. They were the actual adults in the room who were actually trying to do something.
Liz: Yeah. And I do think that teen empowerment fantasy is really important. And I think this series is going to go into those spaces. But I also think this responsible adult fantasy is equally important. And I really appreciate that Star Trek: Starfleet Academy has the flexibility to tell both types of story.
Anika: Right.
Liz: I think it’s using its YA setting really effectively.
Anika: These are literally the same ages as my students. Yeah. The kids in this show. And I will tell you that my students have so much more, I’m going to call it chutzpah, than I did when I was their age, in terms of going to the top of the pyramid to talk about whatever issue, they really do reach for that agency and they want to change things. I mean, just look at Greta Thunberg and Malala and all these people who were young and heroic.
Liz: The campus protesters who are getting universities to pull out of investing in arms and weapons and stuff like that. It’s amazing. They are so much more knowledgeable and empowered than I was as a first-year university student. But also, they shouldn’t have to be.
Anika: But we have to be inspired by them and then take over. We can’t throw them to the wolves and let them fight the battles.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Because they’re not equipped for it and it’s not fair.
Liz: Yeah. And I do think that one thing Star Trek: Starfleet Academy as a series seems to understand is that any time the lives of others are in the hands of these cadets, something has gone terribly, terribly wrong.
Even in the premiere, which has the most action of any episode we’ve seen so far. On the one hand, you’ve got Caleb and Darem and Genesis saving the ship, but you also have the other two dealing with Lura’s injury. We’re not all saving the ship, and it’s only because of Caleb’s very specific experience that he’s in a position to help.
Anika: Right.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: Are we ready for shipping news? I should tell you, you’ll hear it soon, but I have found a theme music for our shipping news.
Anika: Yay.
Liz: It’s literally just the opening to The Love Boat theme.
Anika: I mean, so, Darem and Jay-Den are right there.
Liz: Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Anika: It’s I don’t know, again, my son and I were like, so gay.
Liz: Gay.
Anika: It was just not, he comes up with him, and I did actually, I really liked the contrast between Caleb trying to help by saying we can be partners, and Darem trying to help by saying, I have this idea for an exercise you can do when you’re worried. Because, you know, so far, Caleb has definitely been the quote unquote better person than Darem, but in this case, Darem had what was actually useful and needed.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah.
Anika: So I like that.
Liz: And I think it’s also because Darem comes from a culture that also seems quite militaristic, or at least his background. He seems like someone who has gone to a military prep school.
Anika: Yeah. And even if it’s not military, it’s definitely there are rules, there are ways to present yourself. And if you screw up, he was basically having his own little secret anxiety attacks about how he was presenting himself. And that’s why he wasn’t able to focus on and actually solve the problem and be a leader. So we know that Darem has some of these similar issues, he recognizes that Jay-Den is very buttoned up for a reason.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Whereas Caleb has seen more of the universe, but he’s very much, I’ve met Klingons and I assume you’re like them. And I assume that your understanding of Klingon culture is the same as every other Klingon that I’ve met, even though they’re a diaspora. And that means that there’s now a lot more cultural difference than there used to be.
Anika: I know. Which is super interesting really. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. And I think Caleb is such a good character that it’s really useful to see his flaws in this way. And it really is the same as his strengths. His strength is that he sees a situation and can think of a solution very quickly.
But we saw with Tarima last week and with Jay-Den now that his solutions are not always what the other people need. And sometimes he just needs to get out of their way and let them handle things themselves. He really embodies the Federation in that he wants to help even when it’s not necessarily the right thing to do.
Anika: And that is also such an important thing to be presenting to the world. Yes, yes.
Liz: And especially in a character who is himself a skeptic of the Federation.
Anika: Yes. In this young, traumatized, I don’t know, he just carries a lot. And I think it’s a really good flaw for him to have. And I like that it’s resolved in a way that he sees Jay-Den. Yes, yes. And he hears Jay-Den. And once that happens, he is able to just agree and say, oh yeah, I see now why I was wrong.
Liz: Yeah. And I think this is a flaw that he’s going to carry with him for his whole life, because the desire to help people and the desire to fix problems is a really big part of him.
But it’s not a fatal flaw. It doesn’t make him a bad person. It’s something he needs to learn to recognize and manage. And it seems like at this point, he’s doing it on a one-on-one basis with everyone he helps or wants to help. Yeah.
Anika: And I also think that, again, Nahle has those same proclivities.
Liz: Oh, absolutely. And to be honest, Caleb having the same urge is another thing that stops her story from being a white savior narrative.
Anika: Exactly. And yeah. So it’s really, I just love them.
But anyway, back to Darem and Jay-Den. I was like, I wasn’t really shipping them before this, and I don’t necessarily ship them now. I am very into ships where one person is really into it and knows that they’re not good enough for the other person. And there’s all these lopsided balances of power and feelings and everything. And my brother was like, maybe this can be your second boy-boy ship. I was like, oh god. Second ever.
Liz: I don’t know. Jay-Den and Kyle though.
Anika: I know, I still love Jay-Den and my plant boy.
Liz: If the YA series has a love triangle, but it’s entirely men, I would be so delighted.
Anika: It would be amazing. And we also know that Darem would just try to solve it. Oh, 100%.
Liz: How about a threesome? I think Jay-Den and Kyle would just get really shy.
Anika: Yes. Well, it would be interesting.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But yeah, that was, I mean, it made me like Darem more, honestly. I think this was a good episode for him.
Liz: Yeah, because we haven’t seen much of him being nice to people yet. We’ve seen him being flirty with Genesis, but he wants to hook up with her. And they come to a more honest relationship in episode three, but it’s still self-serving in a way. Whereas with Jay-Den, Darem says that he was there because Caleb was annoying him. And I think that’s true, but I think that he did feel a connection with Jay-Den, and it was sincere.
Anika: Right. Because you mentioned her. I did like the throwaway that Darem beat Genesis in the debate.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Because I like their back and forth rivalry. Yeah. I liked Darem getting a point to show that he’s still back and forth.
Liz: Just because Genesis is the better leader doesn’t mean that girl power means she has to win at everything.
Anika: Exactly.
Liz: Yeah. Also, I think Darem was absolutely a high school debate bro. Then we have Nahle and her Klingon ex, and I really wish I’d been able to get his name, but we don’t get subtitles, we don’t get character or actor lists or anything like that. I’ve only just figured out that it’s Darem with an M, not Darren.
Anika: Darren with an N, yes. I know.
Liz: In my heart, he’s Darren.
Anika: Yeah. I don’t know his name either. I was like, well, I went and I tried and, Liz, it was like, nope. I need all of these names spelled out for me, just like you said with Darem.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: We need it spelled out for us.
Liz: So we need to send a really nice email to the lady who sends us our screeners going, going forward, can screeners come with this? Is that something that can be made to happen? Thank you.
Anika: Literally just a cast list. That’s all I want. A cast list for each episode. Because IMDb isn’t updated yet.
Liz: No, according to IMDb, the only actor in this entire episode is Stephen Colbert.
Anika: I look forward to the episode where it is just Stephen Colbert, the computer talking to itself. That could be an episode. I can imagine.
Liz: Oh yeah, that and the Talaxian fur fly.
Anika: Yes.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: But they were delightful. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. I was saying that Nahle is on the cusp of being my blorbo, but I need someone to be in love with her. I don’t think this Klingon guy is it, but I like knowing more about her past and that she left this relationship with him because she had to choose between him and her ship and she chose her ship. So I think that makes it even more significant that she then walked away from Starfleet after she failed Caleb.
Anika: Right. Because she was devoted. Yeah.
Liz: Yeah. And he says, your ship, you wouldn’t leave your ship, not you wouldn’t leave Starfleet or you wouldn’t walk away from your career. And this puts her in the Kirk, Picard, I’m in love with my starship category, which is great.
Anika: Which is great. Again, I love using relationships to build out characters and world build in that way. So yeah, it’s great. Yeah, it’s great to see him. And he was a nice Klingon. He’s fine.
Liz: By the end, when he gives Jay-Den the weapon and then Jay-Den eats the warrior stew, I was actually tearing up.
Anika: I turned to my kid and I was like, I can’t believe I’m crying about Klingon nonsense.
Liz: No, I know, it’s terrible.
Anika: I complain about the Klingon nonsense all the time.
Liz: Yeah, but we care about Jay-Den.
Anika: But oh my gosh, I was just like…
Liz: He’s our anxious son.
Anika: I love him so much. And I’m so glad that his parents are okay. Because you know what I didn’t need? More troubles for my Klingon son.
Liz: No, and maybe in a future episode, we will see his parents again and he can have that conversation with his dad, who will maybe apologize for being, sorry, I abandoned you out of love.
Anika: Yeah.
Liz: It could happen.
Anika: Beautiful.
Liz: And then I do not ship Caleb and Jay-Den because they are brothers.
Anika: I know. I was like, so I guess we’re not shipping that because they were really pushing this in this particular episode. All the other characters were like, that’s your brother. And I was like, I guess that’s his brother, which is fine. I love siblings or as close as siblings.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah.
Anika: It’s one of my favorite dynamics in all of relationships. So totally on board with it. I like the outsiders linked up like brothers in misfitdom.
Liz: Yeah. They found family without being weird and culty about it like the Star Trek: Discovery crew. And also the brothers thing didn’t feel like it was no-homoing the relationship. I have never spotted any sexual tension between Caleb and Jay-Den.
Anika: You know, they gave Jay-Den an actual brother who he lost.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah.
Anika: So he knows what it is to have a brother. And I liked that he, you know, very similar to the way that Nahle was like, I had the kid and Caleb was like, yeah, cool, I’m not your son. I feel like, you know, poor Caleb didn’t know what Jay-Den’s story was, so he doesn’t know his family history or whatever. But he was trying to be, you know, bestie, if not brother.
And Jay-Den was similarly like, yeah, I like you, but you’re not a replacement for my actual dead brother. That’s not a thing that we’re just going to do. And I like that this is a weird recurring thing because I feel like too often in stories, I just said that I love as close as siblings and I love quote unquote replacement sibling relationships or replacement parents.
I am very into found family, but it’s not, I am taking the place of this thing that you’re lacking. It’s, I am having a relationship that is similar to that and that you can call it that, and it is family, but that doesn’t automatically mean that you no longer care about the other family as well. You know?
Liz: Right, right.
Anika: There’s this weird idea in fandom that if you have found family, your real family is, there’s a reason they’re not in your lives and you shouldn’t ever try to reclaim it and it’s bad. And if you have a good, happy, healthy family, you don’t need found family. And I think that that is not true. I think both of those statements are wrong. You can actually have both. And sometimes they can even be the same, like Lura.
Liz: So, yeah, or Tarima and Ocam.
Anika: Exactly.
Liz: Yeah.
Anika: Normally, I don’t like it when people talk to fandom in the show. And if it keeps happening, I might. But it felt like a little secret message for me. They were saying that this is for you. Star Trek agrees with you, Anika.
Liz: And then the point in shipping news that I skipped over because I was so eager to talk about Caleb and Jay-Den is Nahle and Vance. And I don’t… Charlie. I love that she calls him Charlie. But also, Charlie is his daughter’s name. He named his daughter after himself. I cannot let this go. What is wrong with Charles Vance?
Anika: Maybe he couldn’t name his daughter after Nahle. So this was the closest that he could get to it.
Liz: You feel like his wife, who goes to another school in another federation in Canada, put her foot down?
Anika: Yeah, I do. She’s an imaginary wife. So, I mean, not to let my brain go crazy, but if they were really close and the relationship with Nahle predated the relationship with whatever her name is, yes, then it could be a situation where, you know, I understand that this is someone who’s important to you, but this is our child and we’re not going to bring her into our relationship and our family.
Again, this is like the T’Pel problem all over again. If you want me to care about Vance’s wife, then she needs to exist. Otherwise, I’m going to put all the bad stuff on her, and that’s just the way it’s going to be.
Liz: I’m concerned that they’re going to kill her off off screen, so we can have canonical Nahle and Charlie, and I’m not down for that. But I say that, and I remember after the fifth episode of Star Trek: Discovery dropped and you were saying Lorca and Cornwell are totally exes, and I was like, I don’t know if I see it. And then a week later, it was literally all I could think about.
Anika: And also confirmed.
Liz: Yeah, and also true. Your instincts were dead on.
Anika: Well, it just means that it’s good storytelling.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, we knew where it was going.
Anika: I want it to be like, oh, well, we’ve been separated for 20 years, and then she was back, and it turns out we don’t know each other anymore, and we decided to get divorced. That would be my way of fixing Vance’s wife problem.
Liz: Honestly, a divorce in a Star Trek context would be pretty radical. The series generally doesn’t go that way.
Anika: It would be incredibly radical. So if anything is going to happen, and I don’t know that anything would happen.
Liz: No, I don’t know.
Anika: But if you think you’re right, then it’s going to be death off screen. But I just want to say I love them. I love them in any context. I don’t actually need them to have a romance in order to be awesome together and to ship them together. Again, I just said that my preference really is for the people who aren’t together but should be friends and have all these feelings, unhinged sexual tension.
Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Anika: This is how I describe it for various people I won’t name, but I’m sure you can guess.
Liz: I think what I want for Nahle romantically is someone she loves but can’t be with, someone who loves her back. And it’s only work and duty and all of that that stands in their way.
Anika: Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Liz: Did I grow up as a Picard/Crusher, Janeway/Chakotay shipper? Yes, I did. Did it rewrite my brain? Yes, it did.
Anika: Yes, it did. I love that she calls him Charlie openly. I love that he straight up smiles at her all the time. He is always shooting little smiles at her because she just makes him happy. And that is love. It’s so good. It makes me so happy.
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